Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
rgprice
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by rgprice »

@SG Yes, you keep saying this, even though you are factually proven to be wrong.

As a literary device or artistic form, an allegory is a narrative or visual representation in which a character, place, or event can be interpreted to represent a hidden meaning with moral or political significance.


Mark 1:
4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And people from the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him, and were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 He proclaimed, ‘The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the thong of his sandals.


2 Kings 1:
8 They replied, “He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist.” The king said, “That was Elijah the Tishbite.”


Mark 9:
9 As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead could mean. 11 Then they asked him, ‘Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 12 He said to them, ‘Elijah is indeed coming first to restore all things. How then is it written about the Son of Man, that he is to go through many sufferings and be treated with contempt? 13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written about him.’

By definition we have allegory here. Continuing to say "I don't think its allegory" is just foolishness.
RandyHelzerman
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by RandyHelzerman »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 10:55 am I don't think gMark is an allegory.
Have you read RG Price's book? I too was very skeptical when I picked it up, but by the time I put it down I was convinced. Page after page after page of examples--some very convincing, some less so, but cumulatively really start getting hard to ignore, if you approach it with an open mind.
rgprice
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by rgprice »

So SG, I'd like to hear your critique of what I wrote in Deciphering the Gospels:

I’d like to first focus on one simple element of the story to demonstrate that this is a fictional story, crafted by the author with the intent that readers use the literary allusions to understand the story. In the Gospel called Mark, John the Baptist represents Elijah. Knowing this is important for understanding the story. How are readers supposed to know that John the Baptist represents Elijah in the story? Readers are told this at the very beginning of the story through the use of literary allusion. In fact, readers are clued in to the fact that the story will parallel much of 1 and 2 Kings right from the beginning.

The author uses an implicit reference to the Hebrew scriptures when the author describes the character of John the Baptist.

Mark 1:
4 John the baptizer appeared in the wilderness, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And people from the whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem were going out to him, and were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 He proclaimed, ‘The one who is more powerful than I is coming after me; I am not worthy to stoop down and untie the thong of his sandals.

Mark 1:6 refers to 2 Kings 1:8, which provides a description of Elijah.

2 Kings 1:
8 They replied, “He was a man with a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist.” The king said, “That was Elijah the Tishbite.”

This description of John the Baptist as a man “clothed with camel’s hair, with a leather belt around his waist” is the only way that the reader can figure out that John the Baptist is Elijah. In order to figure that out, the reader has to recognize this literary allusion and know that it describes Elijah. To an audience of Jews who grew up listening to stories about Elijah, this probably wouldn’t have been difficult. But what is important is that it’s clear that the reader is supposed to be aware of the literary allusion, because the author makes use of information from it later in the story.
Not only this, but Mark 1:2 is a reference to Malachi 3. The book of Malachi concludes in Malachi 4 by saying that the Lord will send Elijah before the day of his wrath:

Mark 1:
1 The beginning of the good news of Jesus Christ.
2 As it is written in the prophets,
‘See, I am sending my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way;
3 the voice of one crying out in the wilderness:
“Prepare the way of the Lord, make his paths straight”‘,

This refers to Malachi 3:1:

Malachi 3:
1 See, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me, and the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple. The messenger of the covenant in whom you delight—indeed, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. 2 But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears?
Malachi 4:
5 Lo, I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes.

As is typical throughout Mark, we see hidden meaning in the narrative through the use of literary allusion. If you just take the narrative at face value, the opening scene of Mark appears quite innocent and nice. However, when you look at the literary allusions, you see that the story is about condemnation of the Jews and the destruction of Israel that occurred during the First Jewish-Roman War. The coming of Jesus is not a good thing; it is a harbinger of destruction, which is actually alluded to multiple times in the story.

So by looking at the literary allusions in the opening scene of Mark, we see very complex foreshadowing and messaging. We are told in Mark 1:2 that a messenger is preparing the way for the Lord. We are told via the book of Malachi that the Lord will come to the temple, which foreshadows the temple cleansing scene in Mark 11. We are also told via the referenced passage in Malachi that the events unfolding are part of the coming judgment of God against Israel, which will result in destruction and punishment of the Jews, which will be preceded by the coming of Elijah. We then see John the Baptist identified as the messenger Elijah in Mark 1:6.

In Mark 6, we are told of the killing of John the Baptist by Herod at the urging of his wife, Herodias, in a scenario reminiscent of Jezebel’s plot to kill Elijah from 1 Kings.

After the Transfiguration scene in Mark 9, the disciples ask Jesus about Elijah.

Mark 9:
9 As they were coming down the mountain, he ordered them to tell no one about what they had seen, until after the Son of Man had risen from the dead. 10 So they kept the matter to themselves, questioning what this rising from the dead could mean. 11 Then they asked him, ‘Why do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?’ 12 He said to them, ‘Elijah is indeed coming first to restore all things. How then is it written about the Son of Man, that he is to go through many sufferings and be treated with contempt? 13 But I tell you that Elijah has come, and they did to him whatever they pleased, as it is written about him.’

It is here that the literary allusions from Mark 1:2–6 become important, because one has to realize from the literary allusion to 2 Kings 1:8 that John the Baptist is Elijah in order for this scene to make any sense. In addition, the question asked by the disciples refers to the passage in Malachi that talks about Elijah coming before “the great and terrible day of the Lord.”

And again in the Crucifixion scene, the author makes reference to Elijah:

Mark 15:
36 And someone ran, filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on a stick, and gave it to him to drink, saying, ‘Wait, let us see whether Elijah will come to take him down.’ 37 Then Jesus gave a loud cry and breathed his last.

Of course Elijah does not come to take him down, because he has been killed by Herod.

All of this is just one example of how the author crafted an intricate, multilayered narrative through the use of literary allusions, which it is clear that the author intended his audience to be able to decipher. This type of complex writing makes it clear that the author is crafting a story; the author is not merely chronicling events or recording random anecdotes that he heard from other people. We see this all throughout the Gospel called Mark. The author makes copious use of symbolism, foreshadowing, irony, and literary allusion, including foreshadowing through literary allusion. These are all hallmarks which indicate that the author invented this story from whole cloth himself. The narrative of the story we call the Gospel of Mark is clearly crafted with symbolic purpose and intent by the author, as we shall more fully explore.

StephenGoranson
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by StephenGoranson »

Referring to an earlier text is not sufficient to indicate allegory.
If, for conversation's sake, gMark (if the first synoptic) were fake but fooled gMatthew and gLuke writers, where did they get additions?
rgprice
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by rgprice »

Where do you think the writer of Matthew got his birth narrative? He made it up. He's clearly working from the scriptures and digging up what he thinks are prophecies for the messiah and then crafting a narrative to fit those supposed prophecies.

As for the rest of Matthew, it is clearly a harmonization of Mark and Luke. So that's where "Matthew" got the rest of his narrative, nothing much to explain there.

As for Luke, the original version of Luke - Luke 3-23 (and half of 24), We can see that this writer is inventing his additions as well. Firstly, several of additions build upon Mark. They take passages in Mark and then expand upon them. Analysis of the parables of Luke shows that they are also the invention of the author. I forget the scholar, but he shows that the themes of the parables are distinct among the authors, which means that they aren't coming from a source, rather they invented by the writers who themselves are the ones supplying the different themes.

I don't understand the incredulousness at the idea that the writers themselves had brains and could invent narratives and material on their own...
StephenGoranson
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by StephenGoranson »

could invent, not the same as did event
rgprice
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by rgprice »

StephenGoranson wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 12:42 pm could invent, not the same as did event
Yes, but we can use our brains to assess whether something is invented by the author or not. That's a large part of what my book was about. When you read any book and you identify foreshadowing, it is clear at that point that the foreshadowing is a conscious literary device employed by the writer.

If there is a narrative that says, "Johnny awoke to see a raven sitting at his windowsill, staring coldly at him as he lay in his bed. Yadda, yadda, yadda. As Johnny was crossing the street he spotted the raven -- just then he was struck by a black car speeding through the intersection."

Oh, did this really happen? I don't know? I don't have a brain. I just have to assume this is all true!

Come on. Yes, it seems that many so called "bible scholars" really are this stupid, my favorite example:

In the spring of 30 A.D. (or possibly 33), Jesus journeyed to Jerusalem for his final Passover. As he entered the ancient capital of King David, he apparently chose to make a symbolic claim to messianic status by riding in on a donkey amid the acclamation of his followers (multiple attestation of Mark 11:1-10 and John 12:12-19), thus evoking the memory of a prophecy by Zechariah (9:9) about a righteous, victorious, yet peaceful king entering Jerusalem on a donkey. Jesus followed up this symbolic entry with a symbolic action in the temple, disrupting the selling and buying of sacrificial animals (multiple attestation of Mark 11:15-17 and John 2:13-17). While this so-called cleansing of the temple has often been interpreted as a call for reform of the temple and a purer worship, in the context of Jesus' eschatological message it more likely symbolized the end of the old order, including the temple. These two symbolic actions of Jesus may have been the reason why the priestly aristocracy chose to arrest Jesus during this particular visit to Jerusalem, as opposed to his earlier stays. Jesus himself chose to press the issue, forcing the authorities to make a decision for or against him.

Various sayings in the Gospels that probably go back to Jesus show that he reckoned with the possibility of a violent death (Matt. 23:37-39; Luke 13:31-33; Mark 10:35-40; 8:32-33; 12:1-12).
- J. P. Meier; Jesus Christ in the New Testament: Part One: The Historical Jesus behind the Gospels; pp 15-16 (emphasis mine)

I still chuckle every time I read this. I mean how credulous do you have to be...
dbz
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by dbz »

rgprice wrote: Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:04 pm I mean how credulous do you have to be...
Evans thus illustrates he is defending the historicity of Jesus as a Christian apologist, a defender of the faith, rather than as an objective historian using the same methods as historians in any other field. To the contrary, he is abandoning those methods, even arguing contrary to them.
  • Evans makes stuff up that’s not in the text, using it as evidence for reinterpreting the text.
  • Evans depicts sources as “essentially reliable” that possess all the markers of complete unreliability in any other field.
  • Evans uses arguments from authority without checking the facts to confirm anything those authorities are saying is true.
  • Evans quote mines and conceals uncomfortable data.
  • Evans wants us to trust ancient uninformed assertions over modern rational methods.
  • Evans treats late, anonymous, unsourced stories as eyewitness evidence.
  • Evans ignores missing evidence his own theories entail we should have.
  • Evans argues from the silence of sources we don’t have and thus can’t in fact claim any silence of.
  • Evans doesn’t address the best version of the competing thesis but conflates different theories of different quality and then claims to have rebutted them all.
  • Evans ignores the peer reviewed literature of his own field, even when he claims to be responding to it.
  • Evans conflates later stories with the causal origins of Christian beliefs.
  • Evans tries to use dependent evidence as independent evidence.
  • Evans injudiciously trusts obvious forgeries when it suits him (such as the interpolations in Josephus, the evidence for which would be overwhelming to anyone not dead-set against seeing it).
  • Evans then misrepresents his own sources and even pretends widespread disagreements in his own field don’t exist.
These are all things Christian apologists do. They are not things serious historians do. Evans is running an apologetics game. He is not doing history.

--Carrier (30 September 2019). "Did Jesus Exist? Craig Evans' Post-Debate Analysis". Richard Carrier Blogs.
Michael BG
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by Michael BG »

rgprice wrote: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:53 am
But this goes back to my bigger point on the Pauline letters. The idea that we can argue for historicity of Jesus based on certain passages in the Pauline letters is entirely wrong to begin with.

We know, with a very high degree of certainty, that the canonical Pauline letters have been revised by proto-orthodox hands specifically for the purpose of making it appear that Jesus was a human being who was born on earth and fulfilled prophecy. We know that. So the idea that anyone can point to passages in these Pauline letters and say, "Look, see this passage shows that 'Paul' thought Jesus was a real person," is entirely bogus.
Seven letters of Paul are generally considered authentic. That has to be the starting point for any logical discussion about what Paul wrote. Then if a particular passage is put forward against your position you need to present a case either why they have interpreted that passage incorrectly or why it is an interpolation. If you just reject anything in the ‘authentic’ letters without presenting a convincing case there is no point in discussing your theories, in the same way there is little point in discussing what is historical in the New Testament with fundamental Christians.
The case I put forward shows that every detail about the life and ministry of Jesus can be "proven" to have been derived from literary sources and the minds of story writers, with zero basis in anything that could trace back to real knowledge of any real Jesus person. .
Dr Sarah states that you have failed to make this case. She points out where your argument is weak.

An argument for this is that you haven’t discussed every passage in gospel of Mark or in Q. (I am not even aware that you have made a case against there being a source Q. Let alone the more difficult task of arguing against the evidence for there being such a source.)
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Leucius Charinus
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Re: Dr. Sarah's Friendly Refutation of all Mythicism

Post by Leucius Charinus »

rgprice wrote: Tue Nov 07, 2023 2:07 pm This is the case with the church fathers. The church fathers say things that cannot possibly be true. And yet the vast majority of biblical scholars want to act as if they church father are fine, maybe they were just a little confused. But the fact is, someone, somewhere along the line, within the chain of "apostolic succession" was a liar and a fraud. That's a fact that cannot be denied, and once you acknowledge that fact it is clear that the entire story of the "origins of the church" is completely baseless. What the fathers said about the origins of Christianity and the Roman church is all 100% made up lies. Now, it may be that later Christians, like Eusebius and Lactantius were themselves dupes, but the fact remains that somewhere along the way lies were told and those lies became accepted as a true story about how all this started, but we can see from reading the scriptures themselves that the claims of the church fathers cannot possibly be even remotely true.
FWIW I largely agree with your assessment of the apocryphal stuff and especially when considering the subset of apocryphal stuff known as the "Lucian Acts". Perhaps we may both subscribe to the assessent of Photius in the 9th century that:
  • [These] books contain a vast amount of childish, incredible, ill-devised, lying, silly, self-contradictory, impious, and ungodly statements, so that one would not be far wrong in calling them the source and mother of all heresy.

    ~ Photius' BIBLIOTHECA OR MYRIOBIBLON 114. [Lucius Charinus, Circuits of the Apostles: Acts of Peter, Acts of John, Acts of Andrew, Acts of Thomas, Acts of Paul]
I also agree (as you are already probably aware) with your assessment of the church fathers. What I disagree with is removing this stuff (the apocrypha and the "Ecclesiastical History of the Fathers") from the table. They are sources, no matter how corrupt, from antiquity. My approach is to stack them up in separate piles along with the canonical stuff (Paul and the Gospels) but that they must remain on the table of evidentiary sources.



How the lies became the truth

What I want to comment on is the above highlighted stuff about how those lies - specifically the lies of the canonical books - became accepted as a true story. The mechanism is quite clear. The truth of the NT story (and the associated creed supporting the NT story) was written (via the various instances of Nicene CREEDS) into the law codes of the Roman empire during the Christian revolution of the 4th century (325-381 CE). In such an inconvenient, inflated and "lawful" position they remained within the legal system of the "Christian nations" until recent times (and in some cases still remain there today).

In the words of Blaise Pascal:
  • "We must not see the fact of usurpation;
    law was once introduced without reason, and has become reasonable.
    We must make it regarded as authoritative, eternal, and conceal its origin,
    if we do not wish that it should soon come to an end."


    ~ Blaise Pascal, "Pensees"
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