vocesanticae wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:53 am
I re-read the section in Klinghardt, and he doesn't seem to set up this dichotomy. Rather, he does not seem to consider the patristic evidence (Adamantius Gk/Lt and Tertullian) for "in prison" at all. Instead, he writes it off as a Matthean insertion in the span of one sentence (p. 645).
I've been rethinking the prison issue:
I'm beginning to think it's the other way around - that Matthew has copied Marcion re the prison issue (with the messengers sent to Jesus )
Matthew chapter 3
[13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
[14] But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
[15] And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
John, at the baptism of Jesus, saw a dove descending and a voice declaring Jesus as the beloved Son.
Matthew ch.11
[2] Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,
[3] And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?
[4] Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and shew John again those things which ye do hear and see:
[5] The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
[6] And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.
So - on Matthew's gospel John sending messengers from prison to ask Jesus if he was the one or should he wait for another - makes absolutely no sense after the baptism and the dove descending on Jesus i.e. John knows who Jesus is (re the narrative).
The Jesus in Marcion's text is not baptized by John - therefore has seen no sign from heaven to declare Jesus the son of god, the messiah, anointed figure. Hence is quite in order to seek some clarification, indication, from Jesus. It's the baptism dove and the voice from heaven that the Marcion John figure lacks.
Interestingly, although John's gospel does not have Jesus in the water - John (the baptist) still sees the dove and the voice when Jesus approaches.
John ch.1.
John ch.1.
[30] This is he of whom I said, `After me comes a man who ranks before me, for he was before me.'
[31] I myself did not know him; but for this I came baptizing with water, that he might be revealed to Israel."
[32] And John bore witness, "I saw the Spirit descend as a dove from heaven, and it remained on him.
[33] I myself did not know him; but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, `He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'
[34] And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."
my colouring.
BeDuhn verse Klinghardt over the prison issue? Looks to me its BeDuhn - Marcion's text did not get the prison story from Matthew - Matthew got the prison story from Marcion's text. i.e. this narrative makes no sense in Matthew's gospel - all it does is suggest that Matthew knows the Marcion text.
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added later
If, re Klinghardt, the text in possession of Marcion, is the oldest gospel, then it had no reason to place it's John figure in prison. Hence, BeDuhn is reading Matthew into Marcion's text. The text of Marcion gives no reason why John is in prison - hence mention of prison in Marcion's text is an addition to that text.
Interestingly, the gospel of John has this strange statement:
3:24 For John was not yet cast into prison.
Again no reason given as to why John is in prison. Only later, with Matthew and the Herodias story, is a reason given as to why John is in prison. This is storyline development - suggesting that when the Marcion text was written - and gJohn for that matter - John had not been put in prison. Thus, in this case, Klinghardt's position is warranted.