Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!)

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Stephan Huller
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Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!)

Post by Stephan Huller »

So the list of people who though Paul had a written gospel grows - Marcion, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Eusebius:
It is still the same sentiment which he follows up in the passage in which he puts the recompense above the sufferings: "for we know; "he says, "that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens; "269 in other words, owing to the fact that our flesh is undergoing dissolution through its sufferings, we shall be provided with a home in heaven. He remembered the award (which the Lord assigns) in the Gospel: "Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."270 Yet, when he thus contrasted the recompense of the reward, he did not deny the flesh's restoration; since the recompense is due to the same substance to which the dissolution is attributed,-that is, of course, the flesh. [Tertullian De resurrectione mortuorum 41.2 BORLEFFS J.G.Ph., CCL 2 (1954),(p.975, l.6) BP1]
andrewcriddle
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by andrewcriddle »

Stephan Huller wrote:So the list of people who though Paul had a written gospel grows - Marcion, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Eusebius:
It is still the same sentiment which he follows up in the passage in which he puts the recompense above the sufferings: "for we know; "he says, "that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens; "269 in other words, owing to the fact that our flesh is undergoing dissolution through its sufferings, we shall be provided with a home in heaven. He remembered the award (which the Lord assigns) in the Gospel: "Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."270 Yet, when he thus contrasted the recompense of the reward, he did not deny the flesh's restoration; since the recompense is due to the same substance to which the dissolution is attributed,-that is, of course, the flesh. [Tertullian De resurrectione mortuorum 41.2 BORLEFFS J.G.Ph., CCL 2 (1954),(p.975, l.6) BP1]
Hi Stephan

you may well be right.

Strictly speaking however Tertullian is only claiming that Paul knew the saying of Jesus recorded in Matthew, not necessarily that he knew Matthew.

Andrew Criddle
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a WriButtten Gospel, Matthew

Post by Stephan Huller »

but but I can't think of an example of someone using "the gospel" in conjunction with a known saying from a written gospel and it wasn't treated as a citation from a written text. if it was anyone other than Paul being connected to the written gospel we'd read the passage as referring to someone citing a passage from the text of the gospel
TedM
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by TedM »

Geez, that is such stretch. Tertulliian is saying that Paul suffered and 'remembered' the reward Jesus promised to those who suffered, as recorded in the gospel. The fact that Tertullian first quotes what Paul wrote related to the same subject and then doesn't quote the gospel saying with an attribution to Paul argues against you. You are going to need a lot better evidence than this, I think.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by Stephan Huller »

So what would a "Tertullian saying person X knew the gospel" look like? How would it differ from what I cited? You recognize of course that the Marcionite and the Alexandrian tradition said Paul knew or had a written gospel, right? This isn't a question. So why (other than this is Paul citing Matthew) is this idea treated like a UFO sighting by you?
TedM
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by TedM »

My impression is that within 50-100 years of Paul's life there is nothing that says -- actually says -- Paul used a written gospel, much less quotes from such a described gospel. If I'm wrong I'll gladly admit it. If I'm right then it seems to me you have almost nothing to support your theory.

To answer your question about "Tertullian saying person x knew the gospel" in the way you mean it looks like this: "And Paul's gospel said: {the quote}" OR "Paul's gospel, which he recorded/wrote down for the benefit of his flock, etc.."

Since 'the gospel' doesn't require a written book at all and the 'written gospels' refer to the unwritten gospel many times -- see https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... rsion=NASB -- a clear delineation is needed to indicate if it refers to a book or not.

In your example I think it DOES refer to a book but it doesn't say "Paul says/wrote 'Blessed are ...'" as it did the first quote. I interpret it to mean Tertullian thought Paul was either aware of one or more existing gospels that Tertullian was familiar with OR more likely Paul was aware of the gospel message of Jesus himself, and not that Paul had written his own gospel.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by Stephan Huller »

My impression is that within 50-100 years of Paul's life there is nothing that says -- actually says -- Paul used a written gospel, much less quotes from such a described gospel. If I'm wrong I'll gladly admit it. If I'm right then it seems to me you have almost nothing to support your theory.
Why should anyone care about what your 'impression' is here when you haven't even researched whether or not something is true or not in the early Church? 'My impression is that because it's cold today global warming is a hoax.' Since it is common knowledge that Origen and Eusebius (Clement should be added to the list) acknowledge exactly this (i.e. that Paul knew a written gospel), it's at least possible or even likely that when Tertullian says something like this he should also be on the list. The difficulty here is Paul knowing Matthew. Or was this a Diatessaronic gospel?
TedM
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by TedM »

Why are you playing games? How can you take seriously the idea that someone 200 years later really knew whether Paul had a written gospel or not when nobody in the first 100 years said so according to the existing evidence? Sure, it's 'at least possible', but not 'even likely'. What possible reasoning can you be using to think that it is 'even likely'?
robert j
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by robert j »

Stephan Huller wrote:So the list of people who though Paul had a written gospel grows - Marcion, Clement of Alexandria, Origen and Eusebius:
Stephan Huller,

This is the second time I’m asking for you to provide evidence for your claim that Clement of Alexandria thought that Paul had a written gospel. Last time you said you were too busy to provide any more than a vague reference to two long books of the Stromata.

I’m not sure how meaningful Clement’s belief here would be. From his late second-century catholic perspective, he certainly may have thought that one or more of the synoptic gospels had already been written by the time Paul was evangelizing, but I would like to review the pertinent passage.

Would you provide the citation along with the book and chapter numbers to support your claim.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Tertullian Accepts Paul had a Written Gospel, Matthew (!

Post by Stephan Huller »

Here is Eusebius -" Luke, who has composed for those from the gentiles the gospel praised by Paul" (Eusebius, H.E. 6:25, 4 - 6)
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