Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
Posts: 2110
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:19 pm
Location: Leipzig, Germany
Contact:

Re: Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:17 am The latest Uncertaintist post argues for the likely authenticity of Mark 14:51-52 rather than it being an interpolation, and for its status as an actual event in the story world of Mark in addition to, rather than instead of, as the bearer of scriptural allusions.
https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/202 ... ethsemane/
Very good!

btw I think the term "sindon" indicates that it is a very valuable linen. It was manufactured in Tyre and Sidon, among other places, and traded with it in the Mediterranean region.
andrewcriddle
Posts: 2853
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:51 am
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Tue Jun 13, 2023 3:17 am The latest Uncertaintist post argues for the likely authenticity of Mark 14:51-52 rather than it being an interpolation, and for its status as an actual event in the story world of Mark in addition to, rather than instead of, as the bearer of scriptural allusions.
https://uncertaintist.wordpress.com/202 ... ethsemane/
Very good!

btw I think the term "sindon" indicates that it is a very valuable linen. It was manufactured in Tyre and Sidon, among other places, and traded with it in the Mediterranean region.
yes the implication is that losing the garment is not only embarrassing but financially costly. In Mark 10:28 Peter claims Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee. In Mark 14:51 the youth leaves everything in order to stop following Jesus.

Andrew Criddle
allegoria
Posts: 13
Joined: Wed Mar 20, 2024 3:27 pm

Re: Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Post by allegoria »

If the baptism theory is true then it tells us where “dying with Christ” begins: when Jesus is betrayed and taken to the High Priest. This may add light to the reference to Jonah (Matthew 12:40): “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” Counting Thursday night as one night, and Sunday morning as day.

Perhaps too esoteric, but Simeon’s prophecy in Luke 2:35 [the thoughts of many hearts revealed, a sword through the soul of Mary] can relate to Christ’s trial “in the heart of the earth”. (Especially with John 19:26-27 hitting home the importance of pitying Christ as if his mother, and pitying Mary as if her son.) The baptism theory may also help to explain why early Christians were obsessed with fish imagery. Not just the ichthys, but consider our friend Abercius, who extols “the Fish of exceeding great size and pure whom the spotless virgin caught from the spring.” If baptism had a more expansive meaning than simply the washing of past sins, if it meant being born into Christ from above / anew [John 3:3] and identifying with his death and rebirth, then the fish makes perfect sense: the water was both the deepest and the highest realm [“great deep” vs fermament], fish live in water, the fish was already a potent religious symbol (Jonah), and the activity of fishing is phenomenologically similar to the activity of faith (hence the miraculous catch and so on). Christ is the Great Fish because he fulfills all the roles of the Old Testament figures, and the Little Christ identifies *within him* like Jonah transported within the Great Fish, that messenger of mercy.

I wonder if there is also a connection here to the nakedness of Adam. Upon sinning, Adam flees and later realizes he is naked; here, a follower of Jesus flees and becomes naked. In 1 Cor 15:42-45, you see a connection made between resurrection and Christ the new Adam:
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power […] Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Last but not least, perhaps there is a connection to Mark 2:20-21:
The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them [the Passion, beginning when Christ is taken away from them], and then they will fast in that day. No one sews a piece of new cloth on an old garment. If he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8619
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Post by Peter Kirby »

allegoria wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:10 pm If the baptism theory is true then it tells us where “dying with Christ” begins: when Jesus is betrayed and taken to the High Priest.
Thank you, that is an insightful suggestion here.
allegoria wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:10 pm Last but not least, perhaps there is a connection to Mark 2:20-21:
The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them [the Passion, beginning when Christ is taken away from them], and then they will fast in that day. No one sews a piece of new cloth on an old garment. If he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made.
Interesting. So the rebirth of "dying with Christ" requires a new garment.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8619
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Post by Peter Kirby »

allegoria wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:10 pm In 1 Cor 15:42-45, you see a connection made between resurrection and Christ the new Adam:
So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power […] Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Take note that Paul compares the afterlife or resurrection to being clothed in 2 Corinthians 5:

1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is dismantled, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2 For in this tent we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3 because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4 So while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life.

The Second Apocalypse of James says that Jesus came down "stripping off his clothing," and on earth "walked about naked" in perishability, as he had not yet put on (again) the clothing of imperishability:

It is he who passed through the [worlds without being recognized], who [came down after] stripping off his clothing,
and walked about naked,
who was found in perishability
though destined to be brought up to imperishability.

User avatar
Joseph D. L.
Posts: 1426
Joined: Sat Nov 11, 2017 2:10 am

Re: Enough Criticism!! Why the naked slutboy in Mark 14:51?

Post by Joseph D. L. »

Peter Kirby wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:33 pm
allegoria wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:10 pm If the baptism theory is true then it tells us where “dying with Christ” begins: when Jesus is betrayed and taken to the High Priest.
Thank you, that is an insightful suggestion here.
allegoria wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 5:10 pm Last but not least, perhaps there is a connection to Mark 2:20-21:
The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them [the Passion, beginning when Christ is taken away from them], and then they will fast in that day. No one sews a piece of new cloth on an old garment. If he does, the patch tears away from it, the new from the old, and a worse tear is made.
Interesting. So the rebirth of "dying with Christ" requires a new garment.
Reminiscent of 1 Corinthians 15 and the idea that there is a heavenly flesh that the spirit must be clothed in. Actually I wonder what SA would think about it in relation to Mark 14:51?
Post Reply