Giuseppe wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 10:59 am
Ignoring totally and entirely the fixation by Kunigunde on the marcionite priority as evidence (!) of the historical Jesus, I disagree with Ken also when he quotes Goodacre:
Ken Olson wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 10:39 am In his first reference to Occam in the book, he wrote:
On the [old] paradigm we might have hoped that Q would preserve for us some authentic, individual tones of the Baptist; but the fact is, as I have illustrated, that the Baptist not only speaks with the same tones and phrases as Jesus, but with the same tones and phrases as the Matthaean Jesus. Some simple-hearted followers of Occam might be beguiled by this into reducing the number of hypotheses, since we now have too many. Since Q’s vocabulary and Matthew’s seem to be the same, and since sophisticated defenders of the paradigm will allow that Q is post 70, and so in the same decade as Matthew, and since Q also shares most of Matthew’s theology, it looks as if either Q or Matthew could go. Either Matthew wrote Q, or Q wrote Matthew. (pp. 14-15).
(my bold)
An obvious objection to this claim is that the John who is scandalized by Jesus
not being the coming Jewish Messiah is
naturally not a Matthean John, since Matthew himself is embarrassed by a such John (see Klinghardt for the evidence of a such embarrassment).
An obvious objection to this claim is that Matt 11.6 and Luke 7.23 are word-for-word identical.
Matt 11.2 Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples 3 and said to him, “Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: 5 the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. 6 And blessed is he who takes no offense at me.”
Luke 7.8 The disciples of John told him of all these things. 19 And John, calling to him two of his disciples, sent them to the Lord, saying, “Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?” 20 And when the men had come to him, they said, “John the Baptist has sent us to you, saying, ‘Are you he who is to come, or shall we look for another?’” 21 In that hour he cured many of diseases and plagues and evil spirits, and on many that were blind he bestowed sight. 22 And he answered them, “Go and tell John what you have seen and heard: the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, the poor have good news preached to them. 23 And blessed is he who takes no offense at me.”
We do not have one text that says John is scandalized and another that does not.
Best,
Ken
PS - still working on my post on K on John's question to Jesus and on the introduction to the LP (I now realize the two cannot readily be separated).