Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by Peter Kirby »

I should reply to this question I was asked earlier.
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 6:07 pm Do you know of gospel studies that deny or have no need to posit oral traditions?
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 7:55 pm I take the title of the thread to be a question about "gospel narratives" and I don't recall many scholars who address the question of gospel sources who happen to ignore oral tradition, however broadly or narrowly defined.
Well, I can say that I've read Thomas Brodie before he was cool. I have a copy of his The Quest for the Origins of John's Gospel that I picked up at a time when I was interested in the literary relationship and dependence / non-dependence of John on the synoptics. It did not disappoint. It made a strong argument against oral tradition for the link between the synoptics and John and in favor of John being a literary retelling.

My impressions are also colored by my focus on the few. I will not claim that they are many, as they are not, but it seems that I have sought them out. And even fewer are as pure in eliminating oral tradition as Thomas Brodie is. Some are even enthusiastic HJ spelunkers at the same time as they're (at least partially) closing up the entrance to that cave with their gospel research. Oh well.

These four books may be taken as treating each gospel in, more or less, this fashion:

Thomas Brodie, The Quest for the Origin of John's Gospel

M. D. Goulder, Midrash and Lection in Matthew

M. D. Goulder, Luke: A New Paradigm

Dennis R. MacDonald, The Homeric Epics and the Gospel of Mark

These books were also an influence on me, even if they are oriented more towards a popular audience:

Randel Helms, Gospel Fictions

John Shelby Spong, Liberating the Gospels: Reading the Bible with Jewish Eyes

I also may consider that some don't explore the question of sources of the gospels at all, considering all such hypotheses either unknowable or uninteresting. They wouldn't show up in this short list because they're not talking about sources (and because I have most likely missed stuff).
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by andrewcriddle »

Peter Kirby wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 1:49 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 4:31 am The only reason I can see for assuming oral tradition to be behind the gospels is the presumption that the gospel authors "had" to have got their information from "oral sources" that originated with the actual events narrated. In other words, the reasoning is circular -- it begins with the assumption that the narratives are grounded in history and then satisfies itself that they are grounded in history because the information had to come from oral sources that began with eyewitnesses to that history.
Your comments are well-taken. Yet I would suggest there are several different stances that people take, with respect to the historicity of Jesus, with respect to oral tradition behind the gospels, and with respect to the alleged connection between them. Overall, I would suggest that the oral tradition ideas first developed outside of the nexus of the historicity of Jesus debate, and then only later did some people attempt to pick it up as an argument for the historicity of Jesus.

Regarding the historicity of Jesus, let these refer to the stances commonly taken:

A - Jesus existed, with no historical argument for it [the most common, I would guess]
B - Jesus existed, with historical argument for it
C - no claim that Jesus existed

Regarding oral tradition behind gospels, likewise (I'm not sure which is most common):

P - Oral tradition behind gospels existed, with no historical argument for it
Q - Oral tradition behind gospels existed, with historical argument for it
R - no claim that oral tradition behind gospels existed

The subset of people who can make this circular argument here exist only in the intersection of B and Q.

And yet the subset is narrower still, because if they make a different historical argument that Jesus existed (of whatever quality, good or bad), then circularity is broken. And what is the most common argument for the existence of Jesus that is offered? If I can hazard a guess from my own reading, it's Josephus and/or Paul. Neither of these arguments are about oral tradition behind the gospels.

I suppose it might also be possible to argue for oral tradition behind the gospels without using the assumption that Jesus existed, as difficult as that does seem at first glance.

There are some people who are making this circular argument, but it seems like a minority of those talking about oral tradition as though it existed behind the gospels (in P or Q). It's not great that there are so many in A and in P, of course.
I think one can make an argument for oral tradition without assuming that Jesus existed IF one accepts broadly traditional dates for the Gospels. (Several on this forum clearly would reject such dating.)

On the traditional dating the Gospels were written in say the late 1st century CE, while it is around the mid 2nd century that the Gospel texts achieve the central role in Christian debate literature etc that they have held ever since. (There is IMO evidence of knowledge of the Gospels well before the mid 2nd century but they do not play the central role which they do later. ) The standard understanding of this is that we have a period in which Christian writer know of the existence of Gospel texts but also have access to oral tradition and may (like Papias) prefer it. If oral tradition (of some sort) does not precede the Gospels then this explanation appears to break down. In fact there does seem a tendency for the two positions; late (2nd century) dates for the first Gospel and denial of oral tradition to be held by the same people. I'm not sure if one can build a plausible reception history of the Gospels which both denies a background context of oral tradition and dates the Gospels in the 1st century.

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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by Irish1975 »

It is well to keep in mind that the third evangelist explicitly announces to his readers that "those who, from the beginning, were witnesses and servants of the word" have passed their information along to himself (the evangelist). Different readings are possible, but on a plain reading he does seem to be laying claim to an oral tradition about Jesus (="the word" as something to be witnessed). It isn't implied that oral tradition is the only basis for his account, but important enough to be worth mentioning.

Thus oral tradition is a theme internal to the Gospels themselves (cf. John 21:24-25).
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by perseusomega9 »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:50 am It is well to keep in mind that the third evangelist explicitly announces to his readers that "those who, from the beginning, were witnesses and servants of the word" have passed their information along to himself (the evangelist). Different readings are possible, but on a plain reading he does seem to be laying claim to an oral tradition about Jesus (="the word" as something to be witnessed). It isn't implied that oral tradition is the only basis for his account, but important enough to be worth mentioning.

Thus oral tradition is a theme internal to the Gospels themselves (cf. John 21:24-25).
I'm just going to use an interlinear here, but it looks like the Prologue-ist is saying he has become acquainted with things known from [somewhere= this.dogmav1.11.221] from the beginning, about the W(w)ord.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1.htm
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by mlinssen »

perseusomega9 wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 11:18 am
Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:50 am It is well to keep in mind that the third evangelist explicitly announces to his readers that "those who, from the beginning, were witnesses and servants of the word" have passed their information along to himself (the evangelist). Different readings are possible, but on a plain reading he does seem to be laying claim to an oral tradition about Jesus (="the word" as something to be witnessed). It isn't implied that oral tradition is the only basis for his account, but important enough to be worth mentioning.

Thus oral tradition is a theme internal to the Gospels themselves (cf. John 21:24-25).
I'm just going to use an interlinear here, but it looks like the Prologue-ist is saying he has become acquainted with things known from [somewhere= this.dogmav1.11.221] from the beginning, about the W(w)ord.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/1.htm
Aye to Perseus

1 Ἐπειδήπερ (Inasmuch as) πολλοὶ (many) ἐπεχείρησαν (have undertaken) ἀνατάξασθαι (to draw up) διήγησιν (a narration) περὶ (concerning) τῶν (the) πεπληροφορημένων (having been accomplished) ἐν (among) ἡμῖν (us) πραγμάτων (things),
2 καθὼς (as) παρέδοσαν (delivered them) ἡμῖν (to us) οἱ (those) ἀπ’ (from) ἀρχῆς (the beginning) αὐτόπται (eyewitnesses) καὶ (and) ὑπηρέται (servantsPAST-THE-AGE) γενόμενοι (having been) τοῦ (of the) λόγου (word),
3 ἔδοξε (it seemed good) κἀμοὶ (also to me), παρηκολουθηκότι (having been acquainted) ἄνωθεν (from the firstABOVE) πᾶσιν (with all things), ἀκριβῶς (carefully) καθεξῆς (with method) σοι (to you) γράψαι (to write), κράτιστε (most excellent) Θεόφιλε (Theophilus),
4 ἵνα (so that) ἐπιγνῷς (you may know) περὶ (concerning) ὧν (which) κατηχήθης (you were instructed), λόγων (of the thingsWORDS), τὴν (the) ἀσφάλειαν (certainty).

I'd love mbuckley to comment, as all these words are overly complicated from beginning to end.
I have highlighted a few of the mistranslations and fixed them in uppercase. Still on holiday in Denmark, can't be bothered to do this in depth

ὑπερετής, ὁ, ἡ,
past the age, i.e. of liability to poll-tax, POxy. 1030.8 (iii A. D.), etc.

All this is Roman military Greek gents
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by mbuckley3 »

mlinssen wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 12:52 pm

ὑπερετής, ὁ, ἡ,
past the age, i.e. of liability to poll-tax, POxy. 1030.8 (iii A. D.), etc.

All this is Roman military Greek gents
Martijn, you must be enjoying a VERY good holiday, as your normally sharp focus has become a little blurred...

υπερ-ετης indeed means 'past the age', but υπ-ηρετης is a different word, literally 'under-rower', whence 'underling' whence 'servant' or 'one who gives (a) service'.

Danmark rokker !
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by mlinssen »

mbuckley3 wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 11:04 am
mlinssen wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 12:52 pm

ὑπερετής, ὁ, ἡ,
past the age, i.e. of liability to poll-tax, POxy. 1030.8 (iii A. D.), etc.

All this is Roman military Greek gents
Martijn, you must be enjoying a VERY good holiday, as your normally sharp focus has become a little blurred...

υπερ-ετης indeed means 'past the age', but υπ-ηρετης is a different word, literally 'under-rower', whence 'underling' whence 'servant' or 'one who gives (a) service'.

Danmark rokker !
Whoops... I stand corrected, mbuckley! Thank you

Odd how I had the right conclusion yet went back to the wrong word.

ὑπηρέτ-ης , ου, ὁ, (ἐρέτης) Dor. ὑπηρέτας IG42(1).122.40,112 (Epid., iv B. C.), SIG1000.31 (Cos, i B. C.):—
A.rower, τοὶ ὑ. τᾶν μακρᾶν ναῶν SIG l. c. (dub. sens.).
II. underling, servant, attendant, Hdt.3.63, 5.111; “δοῦλοι καὶ πάντες ὑ.” Pl.Plt.289c; ὑ. [τῆς πόλεως], opp. ἄρχων, Id.R.552b; “ἡ πόλις εἰς ὑπηρέτου σχῆμα . . προελήλυθεν” D.23.210; τῶν ἰατρῶν, τῶν δικαστῶν ὑ., Pl.Lg.720a, 873b; used in Trag. and Att. to express all kinds of subordinate relations, as Hermes is ὑ. θεῶν, A.Pr.954, cf. 983; the Delphians are Φοίβου ὑπηρέται, S.OT712; Neoptolemus is ὑ. to Odysseus, Id.Ph.53; the αὐλός is ὑ. to the Chorus, Pratin.Lyr.1.7: sts. c. dat., “τῷ θεῷ ὑ.” Pl.Lg.773e; τοῖς νόμοις ib.715c, Arist.Pol. 1287a21; also “οἱ περὶ τυράννους καὶ πόλεις ὑ.” E.Tr.426; opp. οἰκέτης, X.Mem.2.10.3: c. gen. objecti, ὑ. παντὸς ἔργου a helper in every work, Id.An.1.9.18.
2. at Athens,
a. the servant who attended each man-at-arms (ὁπλίτης) to carry his baggage, rations, and shield, Th.3.17; sts. light-armed as slingers or bowmen, Ar.Av. 1186.
b. ὁ τῶν ἕνδεκα ὑ. the assistant of the Eleven, employed in executions of state-criminals, Pl.Phd.116b, cf. X.HG2.3.54, 2.4.8.
c. a petty officer of the Council, IG12.879 (pl.), Hesperia 3.63 (iv B. C.).
3. pl., staff-officers in immediate attendance on the general, aides-de-camp, adjutants, X.Cyr.2.4.4, 6.2.13, etc.: sg., D. 50.31; also, officer attached to τάξις, σύνταγμα, or ἑκατονταρχία, Ascl. Tact.2.9, 6.3, Ael.Tact.9.4, 16.2, Arr.Tact.10.4,14.4.
4. servitor in the cult of Mithras, Rev.Hist.Rel.109.64 (Rome).

That list one is unlikely in this context I think 🤣
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

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One can read Brodie's chapter on oral tradition in his The Birthing of New Testament, chapter 6, here (scroll down and click on the chapter title)

Tom Dykstra, in chapter 3, 'The Chimera of Oral Tradtion,' in Mark, Canonizer of Paul, champions Brodie:


One of the Papias [alleged*] passages is...frequently cited to explain why so much time elapsed before someone wrote down the gospel story [*alleged by Eusebius]. In this view, “oral tradition” was valued even higher than a written record:
If then, anyone came, who had been a follower of the elders, I questioned him in regard to the words of the elders – what Andrew or what Peter said, or what was said by Philip, or by Thomas, or by James, or by John, or by Matthew, or by any other of the disciples of the Lord; and what things Aristion and the Presbyter John, the disciples of the Lord, say. For I did not think that what was to be gotten from the books would profit me as much as what came from 'the living and abiding voice' [Eusebius, Church History 39.4].

At first glance this sounds like a reasonable explanation for the content of Mark, but in reality it isn’t historically plausible. Memories even of eyewitnesses grow dim and lose detail after a day or two, let alone weeks, months, or 30-plus years. Scattered impressions and individual emotionally charged moments might remain, but this would hardly supply a long and detailed narrative with extensive verbatim dialogue. Such a narrative might be extrapolated from such memories, but it would be more the result of later reflection and extrapolation than an accurate historical record ...

Still others question the very foundations of the idea of oral tradition itself. One of the most serious attacks on this theory comes from the pen of Thomas Brodie, who convincingly asserts that the idea of oral tradition as the source for the gospels is new (recently devised by modern scholarship, and thus at least questionable), unfounded (the arguments that created the hypothesis are weak), unworkable (the hypothesis doesn’t explain the actual evidence in the text), and unnecessary (alternative explanations are simpler and more credible) [Brodie, Birthing, 50-62].

Brodie’s argument is worth a close examination because the modern theory of oral tradition offers the only real alternative to the view of Mark as a creative author who was reworking other literary sources such as Paul’s epistles to create his narrative.

New: Oral Tradition as a Recent Invention

Christians have had some conception of “oral tradition” since the earliest centuries, but modern scholars invented an entirely new meaning for the term. The process of invention began in the early years of the twentieth century when Hermann Gunkel devised a new method for analyzing the book of Genesis. Gunkel proposed that Genesis was a compilation of stories that were developed and passed on orally within communities for specific purposes in the life of the community. The reason why an individual story was composed, and thus the key to its intended message or meaning, was determined by its original Sitz im Leben (situation in life) ...

The modern oral tradition and form criticism paradigm has perpetuated the conception of the evangelists as scribes or redactors rather than authors. Today scholars have developed other methodologies to interpret the gospels, but the evangelist-as-compiler-rather-than-author paradigm persists ...

Brodie laments that the new theory of oral tradition has even led scholars to downplay literary relationships among the New Testament texts. When parallels are seen between two texts, the parallels tend to be ascribed to a common source in oral tradition rather than to literary dependence. The ultimate consequence is that instead of the New Testament as a whole being viewed as a cohesive literary creation in which the books are all literarily interdependent, each book is interpreted as a standalone unit – just as each pericope within a gospel is interpreted as a standalone unit. Brodie argues that it’s time to strip the false aura of venerability from the modern oral tradition theory and acknowledge that it is subject to re-thinking, as are all new theories. The first step in that re-thinking is to ask how strong the arguments were that established it so recently ...


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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

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neilgodfrey wrote: Tue May 02, 2023 7:55 pmSome scholars have attempted to take the question further -- and D.C. Hindley posted a list of relevant sources discussed by the New Testament scholars -- and attempted to detect little tells in the texts that might point to oral antecedents (e.g. "the rule of three"). But as Brodie pointed out, such arguments are little more than question-begging.

I don't think I have ever read any evidence or grounds for oral tradition behind any of the gospel narratives that does not simply rest on assumption, circularity. I'd welcome being alerted to anything I've missed.
I don't remember attempting "to detect little tells in the texts that might point to oral antecedents" in the earlier post, although this is SOP in literary analysis (usually called "aporia," that is, changes of subject or style that it obvious enough to gives the reader reason to pause and think of why, and associated with the editor's transition between sources).

You are right, though, what passes for "oral tradition" has evolved over the years. Axle Olrik's work on recorded folk stories, which was pretty simple and made naïve assumptions (by modern standards), is much different than studies of oral stories passed on by Slavic bards in formularic format (like Homer's stories) in which successive storytellings have been recorded and transcribed and compared/tested empirically. That is why it is profitable to see the progression of thought on the subject by going from the earlier studies to the later ones. Yes there were a lot of them, and that's just to 1985.

I am not so ready to wave them away as somehow too subjective.
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Re: Have any scholars who claim that the Gospels' narratives originated as oral traditions studied oral traditions?

Post by mbuckley3 »

Irish1975 wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 10:50 am It is well to keep in mind that the third evangelist explicitly announces to his readers that "those who, from the beginning, were witnesses and servants of the word" have passed their information along to himself (the evangelist). Different readings are possible, but on a plain reading he does seem to be laying claim to an oral tradition about Jesus (="the word" as something to be witnessed). It isn't implied that oral tradition is the only basis for his account, but important enough to be worth mentioning.

Thus oral tradition is a theme internal to the Gospels themselves (cf. John 21:24-25).
Fairly put, but, just to spell it out, such are the ambiguities of the Lukan preface that there is another 'plain reading' which denies any place to oral tradition. If the "eyewitnesses and servants of the word" are not differentiated from those who have previously written, but, as is grammatically coherent, are the same people, then it is a claim that previous gospels were written by eyewitnesses who became evangelists. We reflexively interpret παραδοσις as 'oral tradition', forgetting that the παρεδοσαν ημιν/"delivered to us" of the preface can refer to the transmission of written documents; indeed, Josephus (Against Apion 10) describes his narrative of the war as a παραδοσις.

This is essentially a prototype of the Eusebian model of gospel composition. Eusebius did not entirely rule out the validity of oral tradition. In retailing the story of John and the robber, he quotes Clement of Alexandria verbatim : ου μυθον αλλα οντα λογον περι Ιωαννου του αποστολου παραδεδομενον και μνημη πεφυλαγμενον/"not a myth but a true story of John the apostle preserved in memory" (H.E.3.23). But the gospels are another matter. As is well known, several times he asserts that Mark, a follower of Peter, composed his gospel from Peter's words ( H.E. 2.15, 6.14.5ff; and 3.39.15, the Papias reference to Mark not recording matters in the right order). Of Luke : "..the accurate account of things of which he had himself firmly learnt the truth from his profitable intercourse and life with Paul and his conversation with the other apostles [!]" (H.E.3.24.15). The canonical gospels are written by apostles or their entourage. They are the written documents of credible eyewitnesses, there is no space for an oral tradition.

In this light, the accent of Luke's preface falls on the words αναταξασθαι and καθεξης, a claim to have put events in the correct order/ταξις/εξης in a definitive way.

That 'order' was considered a priority for understanding 'what really happened' can be illustrated from Dio Chrysostom's (rather wonderful) Oration 11. The argument is that, largely from internal evidence in Homer's work, in the true history of the Trojan war, Helen was never abducted, Troy was not sacked, and so on. It is a jeu d'esprit, but informed by considerable knowledge of Homeric criticism. 'Order' is a key part of his early attack :

"For when Homer undertook [επιχειρησας] to describe the war between the Achaeans and the Trojans, he did not start at the very beginning, but at haphazard [οθεν ετυχεν]; and this is the regular way with practically all who distort the truth; they entangle the story and make it involved and refuse to tell anything in sequence [εφεξης], thus escaping detection more readily. Otherwise they are convicted by the very subject matter. This is just what may be seen happening in courts of justice and in the case of others who lie skilfully; whereas those who wish to present each fact as it really occurred do so by reporting the first thing first, the second next, and so on in like order [εφεξης]. This is one reason why Homer did not begin his poem in the natural way. Another is that he planned especially to do away with its beginning and its end as far as possible and to create the very opposite impression concerning them. That is why he did not dare to tell either the beginning or the end in a straightforward way and did not bind himself to say anything about them, but if he does make mention of them anywhere, it is incidental and brief, and he is evidently trying to confuse. For he was ill at ease with respect to these parts and unable to speak freely. The following device, too, is usually employed by those who wish to deceive : they mention some parts of the story and dwell upon them, but what they are particularly anxious to conceal they do not bring out clearly or when their auditor is paying attention, nor do they put it in its proper place, but where it may best escape notice...." ( ch.25-26, LCL tr.)

At ch.37 ff, Dio confirms his alternative, accurate history by producing superior evidence from Egyptian temple archives : "Menelaus had come to visit them and described everything just as it had occurred." In other words, a written eyewitness account.
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