davidmartin wrote: ↑Wed Apr 05, 2023 7:01 am
ok, yeah alright. it's not a clearly Jewish idiom it could be a feature of any culture, i saw this as intentional hyperbole though
like John 12:19
See, the world is gone after Him.
unfortunately i couldn't find an actual, real Jewish website i just remembered reading it once
so sometimes Thomas there's some hidden detail meaning othertimes its hyperbole for effect this saying I think it's the latter and it's as simple as that
I believe one of the leading causes of stumbling is not being aware that the original language of the Bible (Hebrew) is a highly exaggerative language, sometimes even to the point of what would appear to be lying from a Western point of view
this is a Christian source so better say a hail mary before clicking haha
https://tentmaker.org/Biblematters/hyperbole.htm
From my Commentary, selective pieces:
'Who?', ⲛⲓⲙ, is a pronoun of interrogation, and the Disciples ask who will be made 'great', ⲛⲟϭ.
That is the exact same word as in logion 8 and it aided in turning into a hyperbole the imaginary and very non-existent Great Fish when it was first sighted - but this word is used "solo" in all other places, and denotes superb nouns, such as e.g. the 'branch' in logion 20, the 'Power' in logion 21 and 85, but especially the 'sheep' of logion 107.
ⲉϩⲣⲁⲓ ⲉϫⲛ- ⲁⲛⲟⲛ, 'upward upon us' is what follows this hyperbole, and next to just meaning 'upward', ⲉϩⲣⲁⲓ is also used for 'Reinforcing following preposition': ⲉϫⲛ-, 'upon, over (and many other meanings)'. Apparently, it is not enough to just use the hyperbole but it even has to be reinforced at that; and to leave all that intact the translation has just left the words in their place: 'who will make be great upward upon us?'. The usual translations say "who will be our leader". Leader?
ⲁⲛϫⲱϫ - leader, commander
ⲁⲣⲭⲏⲅⲟⲥ - originator, founder, chief, ruler, sovereign
ⲁⲣⲭⲱⲛ - ruler, nobleman, notable
ⲣⲉϥϫⲓⲙⲟⲉⲓⲧ - leader, guide
ϩⲏⲅⲉⲙⲱⲛ - ruler, leader
ϩⲏⲅⲟⲩⲙⲉⲛⲟⲥ - (political / church) leader, ruler, guide, instructor
ϫⲁⲩⲙⲟⲉⲓⲧ - leader, guide
TABLE 5 LEADER IN COPTIC
Those are the choices for the word "leader", and it's 50-50 Coptic-Greek: plenty to pick from, and although it is very understandable to try and find a legible English way to express this Coptic construction, there again is a hyperbole in Thomas (which has gone unnoticed like most everything else) with the word 'great' in combination with the very visible Coptic hyperbole of ⲉϩⲣⲁⲓ̉ that reinforces ⲉϫⲱ. The typical Yeshua-type translations use "Rabbi", but that equates to the same understatement as "leader", and "Guru" with a capital G should have been the least modest translation to aim for. "Who will make be superb, towering over us?" is the nearest literal translation that conveys the very strong implication of both words used; ⲛⲟϭ and ⲉϩⲣⲁⲓ, and the resulting image is one of lazy, ignorant and passive "Disciples" who seek a permanent leader to guide them in all things possible for the remainder of their life, possibly also when it comes to the choice of food, haircut and what clothes to wear.
As before, the Disciples make a total mockery of themselves by showing a complete absence of any initiative at all whatsoever - and IS lashes out, vehemently.
IS said to them: the place you have come therein, you will go toward Jacob the Righteous; this one has the heaven with the earth come to be because of him.
The place. ⲙⲁ; the Disciples inquire after a moment in time, and IS responds with a location - that is the first sign of complete disagreement.
The Past Perfect of ⲛⲧⲁ-, 'have', is the next sign, as it asserts a very finite moment in the past, while they were asking about the future, ⲛⲁ-.
The word ⲙⲙⲁⲩ ('therein') is the third disagreement as it is the adverbial use of ⲙⲁⲩ, 'the place there', and its French translation of 'là-bas' as well as the German translation of 'dort' also attests to its connotation of distance, exactly like the ⲛⲏ ⲓⲟⲩⲇⲁⲓⲟⲥ of logion 43: 'those Judeans', a pejorative comment effected by putting them at a remote distance via use of the demonstrative pronoun 'those' instead of "these".
Thomas picks up the future after that: ⲧⲉⲧⲛ- ⲛⲁ- ⲃⲱⲕ ϣⲁ- ⲓ̉ⲁⲕⲱⲃⲟⲥ ⲡ- ⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ,'you will go toward Jacob the Righteous'. ⲛⲁ- is the verbal prefix for the Future I and II, and combines with ⲃⲱⲕ. ϣⲁ- is a preposition for 'toward', ϣⲁⲣⲟ⸗ in its pronominal form, but it is Jacob the Righteous, Greek loanword there, that deserves all attention: Righteous, ⲇⲓⲕⲁⲓⲟⲥ - δίκαιος:
'observant of custom and social rule, well-ordered, civilised / observant of right, righteous (Homer)'. What is the awkward property that is attributed to him?
ⲡⲁⲓ, 'this-one', 'has the heaven with the earth come to be because of him'. And whereas the use of 'therein' implied distance, the demonstrative pronoun 'this' is supposed to connotate intimacy, emotional closeness - unless it is used as substantive in combination with an extraordinary feat, then the effect is to put the spotlights on someone to criticise or even ridicule him: "this guy thinks the whole universe evolves around him" would the contemporary (and very free) English translation be. All translations interpret this as "high praise for James, the brother of..." - but the irony of the hyperbolic question of the utterly passive, servile Disciples evoking bitter and biting sarcasm of IS must have eluded them
(...)
Meaning
The Disciples pose another question to Thomas, and again it is an open one, attesting to their complete lack of prior thought about any of it - and not only that, Thomas portrays their complete inaction as their only intent expressed is one of being "mastered"; if not by IS, then who does he have in mind as his successor? IS lashes out with full force, highly likely at the entire Israeli dream, by dismissing them to the Jacob of Isaac and Rebecca, also known as Israel: that Jacob who is considered so very righteous yet who lied to and betrayed his father, his brother, his uncle, and likely some others as well
Relation to previous logia
The first time that the Disciples get told off occurred in logion 6, and Thomas will have them ask "dumb questions" until the bitter end. Time and again IS demonstrates that their questions are completely wrong, and the only function of the Disciples is to serve as a pretext for refuting and rejecting religion in general and Judaism in particular, and to redirect their strongly eschatological questions by repeating his own answers, the epitome of which is the penultimate logion, 113, which contains a question by them about something that got unequivocally stated in logion 3 already: have they learned nothing at all, between beginning and end of this text?
What is not in the commentary is the fact that 'good' is the pivotal word in Thomas:
Good ⲁⲅⲁⲑⲟⲥ Noun 45 good
ⲉⲛⲁⲛⲟⲩϥ Adjective m. 8, 9, 57 good
ⲉⲧⲛⲁⲛⲟⲩϥ Adjective m. 9, 57
The fisherman, the sower, the anti-sower: these 3 are the core parables, and the hint in the fisherman is that the great fish is good upon discovery, but no longer that when "chosen" - because only the earth is good, and the seed that demonstrates that is the good seed, and those two are all that matters
Great?
great ⲛⲟϭ Adjective 8, 12, 20, 21, 29, 85, 96, 107
The fish, Jacob, the branch, the Power, the reign of rich man (twice in a row), the loaves, and the sheep - all of them truly great or renowned, prizes.
Jacob?
ⲉⲧ ⲛⲁ ⲣ̆ ⲛⲟϭ ⲉϩⲣⲁⲓ̉ ⲉϫⲱ ⲛ - "who will be made great upward upon us". An extreme hyperbole indeed, and it really does not serve any mundane purpose at all - all attention is focused on the person in the answer