Carrier actually does his due diligence right from the start:Peter Kirby wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:59 pmMaybe Carrier is conflating two different things:GakuseiDon wrote: ↑Mon Mar 27, 2023 5:20 pm Some quotes from Justin's Trypho showing he is arguing that Justin can't prove that Jesus didn't [sic] exist would be useful here. I just don't trust Carrier's citations anymore.
(1) Trypho expresses skepticism about... (leaving this blank deliberately, because it requires careful interpretation)
(2) Justin's replies to Trypho's skepticism aren't what we would consider historical evidence (talking about the stories having power, about prophecy, about contemporary miracles)
I can find a couple places where Trypho qualifies his statements in a skeptical way, to the point where it's a credible view that he's not really bought into the story of Jesus at all.
I can't find anything so specific as "arguing that Justin can't prove that Jesus did exist."
No, I don't know why Carrier does things like this.
Justin of course offers no evidence any of that is true, or even epistemically relevant. How does a story being “powerful” and “full of grace” evince any of it is actually true? This indicates Justin actually has no relevant evidence (and indeed, across the entire Dialogue, he will never present any); so he has to fall back on a mere Affective Fallacy. But our concern is with the charge Justin is trying to rebut, and what Justin’s reply tells us that was: Justin responds to what Trypho said by insisting his beliefs are not based on myths but true stories. Which tells us Justin did indeed mean Trypho’s remark to be accusing Christians of believing untrue myths. Which proves Justin knew there were some who suspected Jesus was mythical, that the Gospels are just made-up stories—and he was keen to “rebut” that accusation by simply forcefully gainsaying it. He doesn’t try to cite Tacitus or Josephus or Paul or any other source but the Gospels for evidence Jesus existed. Indeed, his only attempt to defend even the Gospels as historical is wildly fallacious, as we’ll see shortly. So Justin had no evidence Jesus existed either.
The answer allegedly is in CHAPTER IX -- THE CHRISTIANS HAVE NOT BELIEVED GROUNDLESS STORIES.
viewtopic.php?p=41232#p41232
And that chapter starts with
and ends with
And Justin doesn't do anything, as usual he makes empty promises and then distracts, deflects, and never returns to it again unless it is to reiterate his empty promises. He does the same thing with the virgin birth being predicted, literally, in the Tanakh. It's all plain rhetoric and mere bullshit bingo, it's so genuinely Christian