Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Nazare

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MrMacSon
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Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Nazare

Post by MrMacSon »

.
Hebrew ne.tser (natser/natsar) = a branch; a shoot; a descendant http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5342.htm

netser is transliterated to Nazir

We see a major messianic link with netser in Isaiah 11:1
Isaiah 11
1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse1, and a Branch [netser] shall grow out of his roots
2 And the spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord;
3 And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the Lord: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears;
4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth ...

1 Jesse is the Father of King David
Zechariah 3:8
Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, you and your friends who sit before you, for they are men who are a sign: behold, I will bring my servant the Branch.
nazirite/nazarite, from nazir, means under a vow/consecrated/vow of 'separation'/crowned
Judges 13:1-7 (NKJV)
1And there was a certain man of Zorah, of the family of the Danites, whose name was Manoah; and his wife was barren, and bare not <snip>

3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing

5 For behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. And no razor shall come upon his head, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb; and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.”

6 So the woman came and told her husband, saying, “A Man of God came to me, and His countenance was like the countenance of the Angel of God, very awesome; but I did not ask Him where He was from, and He did not tell me His name. 7 And He said to me, ‘Behold, you shall conceive and bear a son. Now drink no wine or similar drink, nor eat anything unclean, for the child shall be a Nazirite to God from the womb to the day of his death.’”

The Septuagint uses a number of terms to translate the 16 uses of nazir in the Hebrew Bible, such as
"he who vowed" (euxamenos εὐξαμένος) [ Numbers 6:21]x
"he who was made holy" (egiasmenos ἡγιασμένος) [Amos 2:11]y
  • x Amos is the first prophet to use the term "the Day of the Lord"; a phrase important in later prophetic and apocalyptic literature.

    y all of Numbers 6 espouses the role of Sacrifice and a Sin-offering by a Nazarite
RT France pointed out that The Septuagint gives "Nazirite" as ναζιραιον, while Matthew gives Nazorean as the very similar Ναζωραῖος
  • France, RT. The Gospel of Matthew, pp. 92-93.
Pious Jews used the term Nazarene to refer to Christians, and are alleged to have called Jesus 'Netser'.


There are other variations of Nazorean/Nazarene, and interesting NT groupings of them: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazarene_(title)#Variants


Natzeret is the word netzer plus the feminine ending, designated by the letter Tav

and Nazeroth is the feminine-plural


In Acts, Paul of Tarsus is called "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazoreans" (Acts 24:5); and Paul is elsewhere described as taking a vow and shaving his head, paralleling Numbers 6
"And Paul after this tarried there yet a good while, and then took his leave of the brethren, and sailed thence into Syria, and with him Priscilla and Aquila; having shorn his head in Cenchrea: for he had a vow"
Acts 18:18 (KJV).
"Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law"
Acts 21:23-24 (KJV)
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Last edited by MrMacSon on Sun Feb 22, 2015 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by MrMacSon »

It is interesting the stipulation of Paul being a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes is made by a Tertullus
Acts 24:1-6
1And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid before the governor their case against Paul. 2 And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying:

“Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight, most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation, 3 in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude. 4 But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. 6 He even tried to profane the temple, but we seized him ..."
We see Tertullian records that the Jews called Christians "Nazarenes" from Jesus being a man of Nazareth, though he also makes the connection with Nazarites in Lamentations 4:7

Teppler, Yaakov Y; Weingarten, Susan (2007), Birkat haMinim: Jews and Christians in conflict in the ancient world, p. 52 -
"This presumption is strengthened by the statement of Tertullian: The Christ of the Creator had to be called a Nazarene... Unde et ipso nomine nos ludaei Nazarenos appellant per eum. Nam et sumus iie auibus scriptum est: Nazaraei...".
Charles Wilson
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by Charles Wilson »

http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5341.htm , in passing.

First Rate idea here. I believe that the focus should be on the meaning of "Guard" here. You do not have to go to Isaiah or some "Church Father" who knew the story and wrote tons of ponderous verbiage to hide what he knew.

Mark 13: 33 - 37 (RSV):

[33] Take heed, watch; for you do not know when the time will come.
[34] It is like a man going on a journey, when he leaves home and puts his servants in charge, each with his work, and commands the doorkeeper to be on the watch.
[35] Watch therefore -- for you do not know when the master of the house will come, in the evening, or at midnight, or at cockcrow, or in the morning --
[36] lest he come suddenly and find you asleep.
[37] And what I say to you I say to all: Watch."

There it is. Why would there be a need to "Guard" or "Watch"? Please don't give me the Transvalued Stuff. That's why "Jesus the Guard" doesn't just slip off the tongue so easily.
"To what could this possibly refer?" If it's not Transvalued then perhaps you could look back to some other time and see an event at Passover that necessitated some "Guards" to watch for some horrible event.

Josephus, Ant..., 2, 1, 3 (In Part):

"At these the whole multitude were irritated, and threw stones at many of the soldiers, and killed them; but the tribune fled away wounded, and had much ado to escape so. After which they betook themselves to their sacrifices, as if they had done no mischief..."

Why would these giving sacrifices (Who performs sacrifices in the Temple? Josephus doesn't say...) stone some soldiers and return to their sacrifices as if nothing had happened?

"At this Archclaus [sic] was aftrighted, and privately sent a tribune, with his cohort of soldiers, upon them, before the disease should spread over the whole multitude, and gave orders that they should constrain those that began the tumult, by force, to be quiet..."

Luke 19: 39 - 40 (RSV):

[39] And some of the Pharisees in the multitude said to him, "Teacher, rebuke your disciples."
[40] He answered, "I tell you, if these were silent, the very stones would cry out."

Why look for a weird meaning from some liars creating a new religion when the evidence is there staring you in the face?

CW
perseusomega9
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by perseusomega9 »

MrMacSon wrote:It is interesting the stipulation of Paul being a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes is made by a Tertullus
Acts 24:1-6
1And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid before the governor their case against Paul. 2 And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying:

“Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight, most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation, 3 in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude. 4 But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes. 6 He even tried to profane the temple, but we seized him ..."
We see Tertullian records that the Jews called Christians "Nazarenes" from Jesus being a man of Nazareth, though he also makes the connection with Nazarites in Lamentations 4:7

Teppler, Yaakov Y; Weingarten, Susan (2007), Birkat haMinim: Jews and Christians in conflict in the ancient world, p. 52 -
"This presumption is strengthened by the statement of Tertullian: The Christ of the Creator had to be called a Nazarene... Unde et ipso nomine nos ludaei Nazarenos appellant per eum. Nam et sumus iie auibus scriptum est: Nazaraei...".
And yet the term(s) are nowhere to be found in the Pauline writings
The metric to judge if one is a good exegete: the way he/she deals with Barabbas.

Who disagrees with me on this precise point is by definition an idiot.
-Giuseppe
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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by MrMacSon »

^ Sure, though
In Acts, Paul of Tarsus is called "a ringleader of the sect of the Nazoreans" (Acts 24:5); and Acts is considered to be based on the Pauline writings
Findings
  • 2. Acts was written in the early decades of the second century.
    3. The author of Acts used the letters of Paul as sources.
    4. Except for the letters of Paul, no other historically reliable source can be identified for Acts.
    5-10 etc
http://www.westarinstitute.org/projects ... -apostles/
Charles Wilson
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by Charles Wilson »

MrMacSon wrote:4. Except for the letters of Paul, no other historically reliable source can be identified for Acts.
What a busy day for this Type of argument:

"If we limit ourselves to records of statements about "Jesus" then we have no historical records concerning Jesus..."
"If we limit ourselves to records of statements about "Paul" then we have no historical records concerning Paul..."

If, however, both the name "Jesus" and "Paul" are substitutes for other known historical characters or constructions thereof, we may find a warehouse full of historical info.
"What kind of name is Yossarian, anyway?" "It's Yossarian's name, sir...".

Thanx, Scheisskopf. Thanx a pile.


[Edit: To MrMacson: The name given at the end of this Post in no way was to intended as an insult or statement with mean intent towards you - or anyone else here. See Previous Post from today. Thnx.]
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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by MrMacSon »

I'm not sure what you point is; the findings of the Acts seminar demonstrate to me that theological texts were written based on other theological texts.

Theology was the heart of society in those days, and the theology was changing more then than at any other time in the preceeding millennia or since.
Charles Wilson
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by Charles Wilson »

MrMacSon wrote:I'm not sure what you point is; the findings of the Acts seminar demonstrate to me that theological texts were written based on other theological texts.
A point of disagreement here, then: I believe that Acts was a Political Document based, not on other theological texts but on the historical record of a man named "Mucianus" and also the Legions who "Minister the Word" for Caesar, especially the 12th Legion. As such, I disagree with Statement 4. The Author(s) of Acts are creating a Docu-Drama around Mucianus, Governor of Syria, who committed to Vespasian, as seen in a Symbolic Reading of the Stories.
Theology was the heart of society in those days, and the theology was changing more then than at any other time in the preceeding millennia or since.
From these items, however, it does follow that Acts is a theological tract, a theological historical tract or any written message of that Type. It may masquerade as a theological work.
It is manifestly not one.

Best,

CW
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MrMacSon
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by MrMacSon »

Politics of the times - 3rd century BC/BCE to 2rd century AD/CE - was bound up in Jewish theology and how it was changing - Hellenism, Jewish sectarianism, etc; and, later, with the development of Gnosticism, Arianism, & Christianity. "The Law" involved several dimensions.
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Re: Nazirite/Nazorean/Nazirene/Nazarene/Natzeret/Nazeroth/Na

Post by Charles Wilson »

MrMacSon wrote:Politics of the times - 3rd century BC/BCE to 2rd century AD/CE - was bound up in Jewish theology and how it was changing - Hellenism, Jewish sectarianism, etc; and, later, with the development of Gnosticism, Arianism, & Christianity. "The Law" involved several dimensions.
One gigantic part of "Jewish Theology" was the end of the Julio-Claudians and the replacement of the J-Cs with Vespasian and the Flavians which led to the Destruction of the Temple at the hands of Titus. The so-called Temple Cult proceeded through the end of the Temple and was non-Platonic in its orientation and Rites. These Priests left word of their opinions even as Josephus tried to silence them in Antiquities and Wars. Josephus won't even tell you who commits Sacrifices in the Temple.

One major part of the Topology here is the Hasmoneans - Alexander Jannaeus on through the end of the Rulers/HIgh Priests at the hands of Herod and the Romans. To think that this Political Movement was at best a nuisance is preposterous. The Pharisees were viscerally hated by the Hasmoneans and the "Scribes and Pharisees" sections of the NT reflect this.

But...if that is so (and it is...), then how on earth does this Political Movement get written out of the Gospels? As I've stated before, Herod's last speech is about how Herod accomplished more in his reign than the Hasmoneans accomplished in 125 years. The "Politics" bound up in Jewish Theology ends up being concerned with the elimination of the Jews and their Culture and the Replacement of the Religious Culture with a derivative written by and for the Romans.

That's the elephant in the room. People would rather create communities populated by people who study certain sayings of a savior/god than look to see if the Road Grading of Judea might have meant something - some teeny weeny something that was of less importance than some belief in an Alien Platonic Ideal. "Jews and Culture? Are you kidding me?"

Who authorized the replacement Rabbinic School of Thought anyway? And why?

CW
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