Rank, Raglan, Freud, a Texas Sharpshooter, and Jesus

[Peter Kirby]

Setting that Wikipedia list of demigods against the Wikipedia list of historical figures accompanied by claims of divinity, one notices immediately that one of the main distinctions is the time gap between the alleged lifespan and the first literary mention of the figure in question, especially since most of the demigods are located chronologically in the mists of mythical prehistory or the age of heroes (this echoes something that Andrew Criddle pointed out up the thread a bit). That gap would seem to be a crucial element for any gauntlet of historicity, as it were, that we may devise. With that in mind, here is a brief, hopefully representative list of figures whose historicity has at least been challenged, in some cases universally rejected, along with their approximate date(s) and the first literary mentions of them. Most of this information comes simply from Wikipedia and Google, and therefore may eventually need to be refined or even rejected; I have no specialized information for most of the figures on the list:

Homer, floruit ~850 BC: mentioned by name by Callinus (~750 BC) as author of the Thebaid.
Lycurgus, floruit ~775 BC: Herodotus (~450 BC).
Sun Tzu, floruit ~506 BC: Spring and Autumn Annals (481 BC?), Records of the Grand Historian (109 BC).
Socrates, obiit 399 BC: Plato and Xenophon, his pupils.
Saint Christopher, obiit 249–251 or 308–313: 9th century legends??
Saint George, obiit 303: palimpset from century V.
King Arthur, floruit ~500: Historia Brittonum (828), Annales Cambriae (century X?).
Pope Joan, floruit 1099: Jean de Mailly's chronicle (~1250).
Prester John, mentioned throughout the High Middle Ages by purported contemporaries; the distance here is not chronological but geographical.
Robin Hood, floruit ~1200 or 1266 (?): Piers Plowman (~1370–1390), Lincoln Cathedral Manuscript (1420), Witham Priory chronicle (1460).
Pied Piper, floruit 1284: stained glass window placed in the Church of Hamelin ~1300, town chronicle (1384) which hauntingly states: It is 100 years since our children left.
William Tell, floruit 1307: White Book of Sarnen (1475).
John Henry, obiit ~1870-1872: fragment of a ballad collected by Louise Rand Bascom and published in the Journal of American Folklore, 1909.

Many of these cases are more complex than the mere listing of two dates can convey. For example, the stained glass window attesting to the Pied Piper of Hamelin was destroyed centuries ago, but accounts survive that describe it; and some of the most distinctive elements of the legend (such as the rats) appear only much later.

One may also have to make sure that certain figures whose fictional invention is well established, but who may at various times have fooled various people, do not wind up getting classified as historical. I mean here such figures as Uncle Sam, Betty Crocker, Rosie the Riveter, Donald Kaufman, and Aimi Eguchi. Pseudonyms pointing to more than one author may also require some kind of special treatment (Carolyn Keene comes to mind; there was no Nancy Drew author by that name; it is a pseudonym used by a whole series of writers).

At any rate, it would be nice if whatever method we prime for determining historicity could make reasonable calls on the above figures; perhaps, for example, it should clearly distinguish the probable historicity of Socrates from that of Robin Hood, while simultaneously accepting Antinoüs but rejecting Hercules.

Ben.

I'm glad to take a wider view of things, and I'm not committed to coming up with anything that would have any particular result when applied to Jesus.

I suppose we could add Ned Ludd (alleged existence 1779, first mention 1811 ~~ difference of 32 years) to that list.

One aspect of the problem is that the historicity of other figures might also be disputed.

[Peter Kirby]

Apparently Plato was called a son of Apollo in legend.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_life_of_Plato
According to certain fabulous reports of ancient writers, Plato's mother became pregnant from a divine vision: Ariston tried to force his attentions on Perictione, but failed of his purpose; then the ancient Greek god Apollo appeared to him in a vision, and, as a result of it, Ariston left Perictione unmolested. When she had given birth to Plato, only then did her husband lie with her.[30] Another legend related that, while he was sleeping as an infant on Mount Hymettus in a bower of myrtles (his parents were sacrificing to the Muses and Nymphs), bees had settled on the lips of Plato; an augury of the sweetness of style in which he would discourse philosophy.[31]

[Ben C. Smith]

Apparently Plato was called a son of Apollo in legend.

Yes, I had included Plato in my original round-up of candidates for the son of God meme. Plato and Pythagoras must have been half-brothers.

Ben.

[Ben C. Smith]

I suppose we could add Ned Ludd (alleged existence 1779, first mention 1811 ~~ difference of 32 years) to that list.

Done. I also added John Frum, though that case appears to be very confusing.

Ben.

[Ben C. Smith]

Setting that Wikipedia list of demigods against the Wikipedia list of historical figures accompanied by claims of divinity, one notices immediately that one of the main distinctions is the time gap between the alleged lifespan and the first literary mention of the figure in question, especially since most of the demigods are located chronologically in the mists of mythical prehistory or the age of heroes (this echoes something that Andrew Criddle pointed out up the thread a bit). That gap would seem to be a crucial element for any gauntlet of historicity, as it were, that we may devise. With that in mind, here is a brief, hopefully representative list of figures whose historicity has at least been challenged, in some cases universally rejected, along with their approximate date(s) and the first literary mentions of them. Most of this information comes simply from Wikipedia and Google, and therefore may eventually need to be refined or even rejected; I have no specialized information for most of the figures on the list:

Homer, floruit ~850 BC: mentioned by name by Callinus (~750 BC) as author of the Thebaid.
Lycurgus, floruit ~775 BC: Herodotus (~450 BC).
Sun Tzu, floruit ~506 BC: Spring and Autumn Annals (481 BC?), Records of the Grand Historian (109 BC).
Socrates, obiit 399 BC: Plato and Xenophon, his pupils.
Saint Christopher, obiit 249–251 or 308–313: 9th century legends??
Saint George, obiit 303: palimpset from century V.
King Arthur, floruit ~500: Historia Brittonum (828), Annales Cambriae (century X?).
Pope Joan, floruit 1099: Jean de Mailly's chronicle (~1250).
Prester John, mentioned throughout the High Middle Ages by purported contemporaries; the distance here is not chronological but geographical.
Robin Hood, floruit ~1200 or 1266 (?): Piers Plowman (~1370–1390), Lincoln Cathedral Manuscript (1420), Witham Priory chronicle (1460).
Pied Piper, floruit 1284: stained glass window placed in the Church of Hamelin ~1300, town chronicle (1384) which hauntingly states: It is 100 years since our children left.
William Tell, floruit 1307: White Book of Sarnen (1475).
Ned Ludd, floruit 1779: The Nottingham Review (December 20, 1811).
John Henry, obiit ~1870-1872: fragment of a ballad collected by Louise Rand Bascom and published in the Journal of American Folklore, 1909.
John Frum, floruit ~1941 (?): strange combination of expected figure and religious alias.

Many of these cases are more complex than the mere listing of two dates can convey. For example, the stained glass window attesting to the Pied Piper of Hamelin was destroyed centuries ago, but accounts survive that describe it; and some of the most distinctive elements of the legend (such as the rats) appear only much later.

Adding the following:

Lao-Tzu, floruit century IV, V, or VI BC; Records of the Grand Historian (century I BC).
Hengist and Horsa, floruerunt century V; Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica Gentis Anglorum (century VIII), Historia Brittonum (century IX).
Bhai Bala, obiit 1544.
John Abercromby, floruit 1561; Thomas Dempster, Historia ecclesiastica (1829).
Anna Sprengel, obiit 1891; anecdotal information from William Wynn Westcott.

[neilgodfrey]

Also Juan Diego, I believe (or doubt)

[Ben C. Smith]

Also Juan Diego, I believe (or doubt)

Oh, good one. From the Wikipedia article:

The debate over the historicity of St. Juan Diego and, by extension, of the apparitions and the miraculous image, is largely a discussion of the reliability of the various documentary sources (many of which are second-hand), and the value, if any, to be placed on an oral tradition which – depending on the view taken of the sources – was first written down either a decade or a century after the year (1548) when St. Juan Diego is said to have died.

It all comes down to the reliability of the sources and the value to be ascribed to oral tradition... and the first penning of the oral sources is of rather uncertain date... wow, does that ever sound familiar.