What would John have baptised Jesus as ??
A Jew? If so, what were Jewish baptism practices of the time?
Something else? If so, what? What practices - 'liturgy' - would have been involved?
John's Baptism of Jesus
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Oh FFS Mac, how on earth can you inquire after that?
Why don't you just go though all of the NT in order to see what they use it for?
You must be really bored today LOL
Mat 3:1 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea
Mat 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Mat 3:7 But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his [place of] baptism, he said to them, “ [You] brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Mat 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come [One] more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit and with fire.
Mat 3:13 At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by [John] .
Mat 3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and {do} You come to me?”
Mat 3:16 As soon as [Jesus] was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him.
Mat 11:11 Truly I tell you, among [those] born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and [the] violent lay claim to it.
Mat 14:2 and said to his servants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! This is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Mat 14:8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.”
Mat 16:14 They replied, “Some [say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.
Mat 21:25 What was the source of John’s baptism? [Was it] from heaven or from men?” They deliberated among themselves [and] said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will ask, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Mat 28:19 Therefore go [and] make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mar 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching [a] baptism of repentance for [the] forgiveness of sins.
Mar 1:5 [People] went out to him from all of Jerusalem and the countryside of Judea. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Mar 1:8 I baptize you [with] water, but He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit.”
Mar 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 6:14 Now King Herod heard about this, for [Jesus’] name had become well known, and [people] were saying, “John the Baptist has risen from [the] dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Mar 6:24 Then she went out [and] said to her mother, “What should I ask for?” And [Herodias] answered, “The head of John the Baptist.”
Mar 6:25 At once [the girl] hurried back to the king with her request: “I want you to give me the head of John the Baptist on a platter immediately.”
Mar 8:28 They replied, “ [Some say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”
Mar 10:38 “vvv You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup I will drink, [or] be baptized [with] the baptism [ I will undergo] ?”
Mar 10:39 “We can,” [the brothers] answered. “You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and you will be baptized [with] the baptism that I [undergo] .
Mar 11:30 John’s baptism— was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me!”
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Luk 3:3 He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for [the] forgiveness of sins,
Luk 3:7 Then [John] said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Luk 3:12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
Luk 3:16 John answered all of them: “I baptize you with water, but [One] more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit and with fire.
Luk 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened,
Luk 7:20 [When] the men came to [Jesus] , they said, “John the Baptist sent us to ask, ‘Are You the One who was to come, or should we look for someone else?’”
Luk 7:29 All the people [who] heard [this] , even the tax collectors, acknowledged God’s justice. [For] they had received the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, [because] {they had} not been baptized by [John] .
Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
Luk 9:19 They replied, “ [Some say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, that a prophet of old has arisen.”
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
Luk 20:4 John’s baptism— was it from heaven, or from men?”
Joh 1:25 asked him, “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
Joh 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands [One] you {do} not know.
Joh 1:28 All this happened at Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Joh 1:31 I myself {did} not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water [was] that He might be revealed to Israel.”
Joh 1:33 I myself {did} not know Him, but the [One who] sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘ [The man] on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with [the] Holy Spirit.’
Joh 3:22 After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, [where] He spent some time with them and baptized.
Joh 3:23 Now John was also baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because [the] water was plentiful there, and [people] kept coming to be baptized.
Joh 3:26 So [John’s disciples] came to [him] and said, “Look, Rabbi, the [One who] was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about— He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”
Joh 4:1 When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware that [He] was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John
Joh 4:2 (although [it was] not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples) ,
Joh 10:40 Then [Jesus] went back across the Jordan to the place where John had first been baptizing, and He stayed there.
Act 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.”
Act 1:22 beginning from John’s baptism until the day [Jesus] was taken up from us. [For] one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:41 Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added [ to the believers ] that day.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed and was baptized. He followed Philip {closely} and was astounded [by the] great signs and miracles he observed.
Act 8:16 For [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:36 As they traveled along the road [and] came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, [here is] water! What can prevent me [from] being baptized?”
Act 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and [Philip] baptized him.
Act 9:18 At that instant, [something] like scales fell from [Saul’s] eyes, and his sight was restored. He got up [and] was baptized,
Act 10:37 You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed:
Act 10:47 “Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these [people] ? [They] have received the Holy Spirit just as we [have] !”
Act 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay [for a few] days.
Act 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.’
Act 13:24 Before the arrival of [Jesus] , John preached a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Act 16:15 And when [she] and her household had been baptized, she urged [us] , “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come [and] stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.
Act 16:33 At that hour of the night, [the jailer] took them [and] washed [their] wounds. And without delay, he and all his household were baptized.
Act 18:8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his whole household believed in the Lord. And many of the Corinthians who heard [ the message ] believed and were baptized.
Act 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, [though] he knew only the baptism of John.
Act 19:3 “Into what, then, were you baptized?” [Paul] asked. “ - The baptism of John,” they replied.
Act 19:4 Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the [One] coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins {away} , calling on His name.’
Rom 6:3 Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from [the] dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
1Cor 1:13 {Is} Christ divided? {Was} Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Cor 1:14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Cor 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Cor 1:16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else.
1Cor 1:17 For Christ {did} not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of [its] power.
1Cor 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit {to drink} .
1Cor 15:29 If [these things are] not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If [the] dead are not raised at all, why are [people] baptized for them?
Gal 3:27 For all of you [who] were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Col 2:12 And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with [Him] through [your] faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Heb 6:2 instruction about baptisms, [the] laying on of hands, [the] resurrection of [the] dead, and eternal judgment.
1Pe 3:21 And [this water] symbolizes [the] baptism [that] now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the body, but [the] pledge of a clear conscience toward God. [It saves you] through [the] resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Mat 3:6 Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Mat 3:7 But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his [place of] baptism, he said to them, “ [You] brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Mat 3:11 I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come [One] more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit and with fire.
Mat 3:13 At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by [John] .
Mat 3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and {do} You come to me?”
Mat 3:16 As soon as [Jesus] was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him.
Mat 11:11 Truly I tell you, among [those] born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Mat 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and [the] violent lay claim to it.
Mat 14:2 and said to his servants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! This is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Mat 14:8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.”
Mat 16:14 They replied, “Some [say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Mat 17:13 Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.
Mat 21:25 What was the source of John’s baptism? [Was it] from heaven or from men?” They deliberated among themselves [and] said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will ask, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Mat 28:19 Therefore go [and] make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mar 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching [a] baptism of repentance for [the] forgiveness of sins.
Mar 1:5 [People] went out to him from all of Jerusalem and the countryside of Judea. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Mar 1:8 I baptize you [with] water, but He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit.”
Mar 1:9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mar 6:14 Now King Herod heard about this, for [Jesus’] name had become well known, and [people] were saying, “John the Baptist has risen from [the] dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Mar 6:24 Then she went out [and] said to her mother, “What should I ask for?” And [Herodias] answered, “The head of John the Baptist.”
Mar 6:25 At once [the girl] hurried back to the king with her request: “I want you to give me the head of John the Baptist on a platter immediately.”
Mar 8:28 They replied, “ [Some say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”
Mar 10:38 “vvv You do not know what you are asking,” Jesus replied. “Can you drink the cup I will drink, [or] be baptized [with] the baptism [ I will undergo] ?”
Mar 10:39 “We can,” [the brothers] answered. “You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and you will be baptized [with] the baptism that I [undergo] .
Mar 11:30 John’s baptism— was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me!”
Mar 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Luk 3:3 He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for [the] forgiveness of sins,
Luk 3:7 Then [John] said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Luk 3:12 Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
Luk 3:16 John answered all of them: “I baptize you with water, but [One] more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit and with fire.
Luk 3:21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened,
Luk 7:20 [When] the men came to [Jesus] , they said, “John the Baptist sent us to ask, ‘Are You the One who was to come, or should we look for someone else?’”
Luk 7:29 All the people [who] heard [this] , even the tax collectors, acknowledged God’s justice. [For] they had received the baptism of John.
Luk 7:30 But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, [because] {they had} not been baptized by [John] .
Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
Luk 9:19 They replied, “ [Some say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, that a prophet of old has arisen.”
Luk 12:50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
Luk 20:4 John’s baptism— was it from heaven, or from men?”
Joh 1:25 asked him, “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
Joh 1:26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands [One] you {do} not know.
Joh 1:28 All this happened at Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
Joh 1:31 I myself {did} not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water [was] that He might be revealed to Israel.”
Joh 1:33 I myself {did} not know Him, but the [One who] sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘ [The man] on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with [the] Holy Spirit.’
Joh 3:22 After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, [where] He spent some time with them and baptized.
Joh 3:23 Now John was also baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because [the] water was plentiful there, and [people] kept coming to be baptized.
Joh 3:26 So [John’s disciples] came to [him] and said, “Look, Rabbi, the [One who] was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about— He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”
Joh 4:1 When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware that [He] was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John
Joh 4:2 (although [it was] not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples) ,
Joh 10:40 Then [Jesus] went back across the Jordan to the place where John had first been baptizing, and He stayed there.
Act 1:5 For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.”
Act 1:22 beginning from John’s baptism until the day [Jesus] was taken up from us. [For] one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:41 Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added [ to the believers ] that day.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip as he preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Even Simon himself believed and was baptized. He followed Philip {closely} and was astounded [by the] great signs and miracles he observed.
Act 8:16 For [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 8:36 As they traveled along the road [and] came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, [here is] water! What can prevent me [from] being baptized?”
Act 8:38 And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and [Philip] baptized him.
Act 9:18 At that instant, [something] like scales fell from [Saul’s] eyes, and his sight was restored. He got up [and] was baptized,
Act 10:37 You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed:
Act 10:47 “Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these [people] ? [They] have received the Holy Spirit just as we [have] !”
Act 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay [for a few] days.
Act 11:16 Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.’
Act 13:24 Before the arrival of [Jesus] , John preached a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.
Act 16:15 And when [she] and her household had been baptized, she urged [us] , “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come [and] stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.
Act 16:33 At that hour of the night, [the jailer] took them [and] washed [their] wounds. And without delay, he and all his household were baptized.
Act 18:8 Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his whole household believed in the Lord. And many of the Corinthians who heard [ the message ] believed and were baptized.
Act 18:25 He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, [though] he knew only the baptism of John.
Act 19:3 “Into what, then, were you baptized?” [Paul] asked. “ - The baptism of John,” they replied.
Act 19:4 Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the [One] coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 22:16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins {away} , calling on His name.’
Rom 6:3 Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from [the] dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life.
1Cor 1:13 {Is} Christ divided? {Was} Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
1Cor 1:14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
1Cor 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Cor 1:16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else.
1Cor 1:17 For Christ {did} not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of [its] power.
1Cor 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1Cor 12:13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit {to drink} .
1Cor 15:29 If [these things are] not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If [the] dead are not raised at all, why are [people] baptized for them?
Gal 3:27 For all of you [who] were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
Col 2:12 And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with [Him] through [your] faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Heb 6:2 instruction about baptisms, [the] laying on of hands, [the] resurrection of [the] dead, and eternal judgment.
1Pe 3:21 And [this water] symbolizes [the] baptism [that] now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the body, but [the] pledge of a clear conscience toward God. [It saves you] through [the] resurrection of Jesus Christ,
BSB for a change, I feel lazy
I'll be eagerly awaiting your analysis!
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
This has a highly catholocizing (lower case 'c') ring to it. Interpolation?
This has a highly catholocizing (lower case 'c') ring to it. Interpolation?
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Cool. Thanks.
And Eph 4:3 and 4:4 preludes that with references to
- the unity of the Spirit | Πνεύματος
- one body and one Spirit | Πνεῦμα
- "one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all"
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Hebrews 6:2the Apostle's Accounts (via the-apostle-mlinssen) wrote:
Ephesians 4:5-6
one Lord, one faith, one baptism (6 one one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all)
Galatians 3:27
For all of you [who] were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:13-17
{Is} Christ divided? {Was} Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that I do not remember baptizing anyone else.
17 For Christ {did} not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with words of wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of [its] power.
1 Cor 10:2
They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
1 Cor 12:13
For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free, and we were all given one Spirit {to drink}
1 Cor 15:29
If [these things are] not so, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If [the] dead are not raised at all, why are [people] baptized for them?
Colossians 2:12
And having been buried with Him in baptism, you were raised with [Him] through [your] faith in the power of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Romans 6:3-4
Or aren’t you aware that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 We therefore were buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from [the] dead through the glory of the Father, we too may walk in newness of life
instruction about baptisms, [the] laying on of hands, [the] resurrection of [the] dead, and eternal judgment.
the Disciples' Baptism Accounts (via the-disciple-in-chief-mlinssen) wrote:
Mark 1:4-5
John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching [a] baptism of repentance for [the] forgiveness of sins. 5 [People] went out to him from all of Jerusalem & the countryside of Judea. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Mark 1:8-9
I baptize you [with] water, but He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit.”
9 In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
Mark 6:14
Now King Herod heard about this, for [Jesus’] name had become well known, and [people] were saying, “John the Baptist has risen from [the] dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Mark 6:24-5
Then she went out [and] said to her mother, “What should I ask for?” And [Herodias] answered, “The head of John the Baptist.”
25 At once [the girl] hurried back to the king with her request: “I want you to give me the head of John the Baptist on a platter immediately.”
Mark 8:28
They replied, “ [Some say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets.”
Mark 10:38 -9
Jesus: “Can you drink the cup I will drink, [or] be baptized [with] the baptism [I will undergo]?”
39 “You will drink the cup that I drink,” Jesus said, “and you will be baptized [with] the baptism that I [undergo]
Mark 11:30
John’s baptism— was it from heaven or from men? Answer Me!”
Mark 16:16
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.
Matt 3:1
In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea
Matt 3:6-7
Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 7 But when [John] saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his [place of] baptism, he said to them, “ [You] brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Matt 3:11
I baptize you with water for repentance, but after me will come [One] more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit and with fire.
Matt 3:13 -14
At that time Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by [John]
14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and {do} You come to me?”
Matt 3:16
As soon as [Jesus] was baptized, He went up out of the water. Suddenly the heavens were opened, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and resting on Him.
Matt 11:11
Truly I tell you, among [those] born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence, and [the] violent lay claim to it.
Matt 14:2
and said to his servants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! This is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”
Mat 14:8
Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.”
Matt 16:14
They replied, “Some [say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
Matt 17:13
Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.
Matt 21:25
What was the source of John’s baptism? [Was it] from heaven or from men?” They deliberated among themselves [and] said, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will ask, ‘Why then did you not believe him?’
Matt 28:19
Therefore go [and] make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit
Luke 3:3
He went into all the region around the Jordan, proclaiming a baptism of repentance for [the] forgiveness of sins
Luke 3:7
Then [John] said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?
Luke 3:12
Even tax collectors came to be baptized. “Teacher,” they asked, “what should we do?”
Luke 3:16
John answered all of them: “I baptize you with water, but [One] more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with [the] Holy Spirit and with fire.
Luke 3:21
When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as He was praying, heaven was opened
Luke 7:20
[When] the men came to [Jesus], they said, “John the Baptist sent us to ask, ‘Are You the One who was to come, or should we look for someone else?’”
Luke 7:29-30
All the people [who] heard [this], even the tax collectors, acknowledged God’s justice. [For] they had received the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and experts in the law rejected God’s purpose for themselves, [because] {they had} not been baptized by [John].
Luke 7:33
For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, ‘He has a demon!’
Luke 9:19
They replied, “ [Some say] John the Baptist; others [say] Elijah; and still others, that a prophet of old has arisen.”
Luke 12:50
But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
Luke 20:4
John’s baptism— was it from heaven, or from men?”
John 1:25-6
asked him, “Why then do you baptize, if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?”
26 “I baptize with water,” John replied, “but among you stands [One] you {do} not know.
John 1:28
All this happened at Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:31
I myself {did} not know Him, but the reason I came baptizing with water [was] that He might be revealed to Israel.”
John 1:33
I myself {did} not know Him, but the [One who] sent me to baptize with water told me, ‘ [The man] on whom you see the Spirit descend and rest is He who will baptize with [the] Holy Spirit.’
John 3:22-3
After this, Jesus and His disciples went into the Judean countryside, [where] He spent some time with them and baptized.
23 Now John was also baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because [the] water was plentiful there, and [people] kept coming to be baptized.
John 3:26
So [John’s disciples] came to [him] and said, “Look, Rabbi, the [One who] was with you beyond the Jordan, the One you testified about— He is baptizing, and everyone is going to Him.”
John 4:1-2
When Jesus realized that the Pharisees were aware that [He] was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John
2 (although [it was] not Jesus who baptized, but His disciples)
John 10:40
Then [Jesus] went back across the Jordan to the place where John had first been baptizing, and He stayed there.
1 Peter 3:21
Acts 1:5
For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.”
Acts 1:22
beginning from John’s baptism until the day [Jesus] was taken up from us. [For] one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
Acts 2:38
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:41
Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added [ to the believers ] that day.
Acts 8:12-13
But when they believed Philip as he preached the gospel of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. 13 Even Simon himself believed and was baptized. He followed Philip {closely} and was astounded [by the] great signs and miracles he observed.
Acts 8:16
For [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 8:36
As they travelled along the road [and] came to some water, the eunuch said, “Look, [here is] water! What can prevent me [from] being baptized?”
Acts 8:38
And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water, and [Philip] baptized him.
Acts 9:18
At that instant, [something] like scales fell from [Saul’s] eyes, and his sight was restored. He got up [and] was baptized
Acts 10:37
You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed
Acts 10:47-8
“Can anyone withhold the water to baptize these [people] ? [They] have received the Holy Spirit just as we [have]!” 48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay [for a few] days.
Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, as He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with [the] Holy Spirit.’
Acts 13:24
Before the arrival of [Jesus], John preached 'a baptism of repentance' to all the people of Israel.
Acts 16:15
And when [she] and her household had been baptized, she urged [us], “If you consider me a believer in the Lord, come [and] stay at my house.” And she persuaded us.
Acts 16:33
At that hour of the night, [the jailer] took them [and] washed [their] wounds. And without delay, he and all his household were baptized.
Acts 18:8
Crispus, the synagogue leader, and his whole household believed in the Lord. And many of the Corinthians who heard [ the message ] believed and were baptized.
Act 18:25
He had been instructed in the way of the Lord and was fervent in spirit. He spoke and taught accurately about Jesus, [though] he knew only the baptism of John.
Acts 19:35
“Into what, then, were you baptized?” [Paul] asked. “ - The baptism of John,” they replied. 4 Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the [One] coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 22:16
And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized, and wash your sins {away} , calling on His name.’
And [this water] symbolizes [the] baptism [that] now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the body, but [the] pledge of a clear conscience toward God. [It saves you] through [the] resurrection of Jesus Christ
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Mat 28:19 Therefore go [and] make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay [for a few] days.
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1Cor 1:13 {Is} Christ divided? {Was} Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
(...)
1Cor 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Cor 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea
Act 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 8:16 For [the Holy Spirit] had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay [for a few] days.
Act 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
1Cor 1:13 {Is} Christ divided? {Was} Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
(...)
1Cor 1:15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
1Cor 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea
.
A clear case of "making m up as they go".
Most interesting are the errors: there is baptism, and there is reception of the holy spirit. And while the former may lead to the latter, Christianity invents that there also are other ways to lay hold on the holy spirit. And Paul has a few goof ups there when he tries to achieve either:
Two traditions are known to him concerning the possession of holy spirit. According to one, one can be a Christian and even be baptised to prove it, without possessing this spirit. The eleven are apostles and are addressed by Jesus as his disciples before they have received the baptism of the holy spirit, 1:5, 8. There is a circle of about 120 “brethren” who meet regularly and take decisions, 1:15; 2:1, but not all receive the holy spirit.
Although 2:1-13 is somewhat obscure in this respect, 1:5, 8 says clearly enough that the promise, the power of the holy spirit, i.e. the outpouring of that spirit according to 2:1-13 is for the apostles and not for everyone else.
Accordingly, Peter stands up to testify “with the eleven”, 2:14, and not with the 120 brethren. He wants the defeated in heart to repent and be baptised, after which they will receive the gift of the holy spirit, 2:38, but it does not appear that the latter occurs, even though they were baptised, 2:41. Whatever they are, according to the ideal drawing of 2:42-47and 4:32-37, a characteristic of these first Christians is not that they are in possession of holy spirit. Nor are Peter, Stephen, Paul always so, if in some circumstances they could emphatically be called πλησθείς or πλήρης πνεύματος Ἁγίου 4:8; 7:55; 13:9. On certain occasions, and so not always, all”, with whom the dismissed prisoners Peter and John had joined, were filled with holy spirit, 4:31. Philip christens and baptises Samaritans, but they receive holy spirit only later through the intervention of Peter and John, 8:4-5, 15-17. Simon the sorcerer also becomes a believer and is baptised, but he does not receive holy spirit, even forfeits his chance to do so and remains a Christian, 8:13, 1824. The chamberlain from Ethiopia is taught, baptised and travels his way with joy, obviously as a Christian, but he has not come into the enjoyment of holy spirit, 8:26-39. The believers from the circumcision are amazed that holy spirit is communicated to still unbaptised Gentiles. They apparently know baptism, but not the holy spirit, as a characteristic of the Christian, 10:44-48. Apollos is experienced in the Scriptures, well versed in the way of the Lord, even fervent in spirit, a zealous preacher of all things Jesus, but nevertheless familiar only with John’s baptism, i.e. he does not possess the holy spirit and does not even know anything about it, 18:2425 cf. 1:5; 11:16. He is not the only one; there are more μαθηταὶ who have never heard of the holy spirit and therefore never thought of holding it as a characteristic of the Christian as well as or instead of baptism, 19:1-3.
In contrast, according to another tradition, the possession of the holy spirit is the touchstone and hallmark of the Christian. Thus where the exalted Jesus, according to Ananias says to Saul-Paulus: ὅπως ἀναβλέψῃς καὶ πλησθῇς Πνεύματος Ἁγίου, where there is no mention of baptism, though it is mentioned in the immediately following message, 9:17-18;
where the βαπτισθήσεσθε ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ of Christians is contrasted with the βαπτίζειν ὕδατι of John, 11:16 cf. 1:5; where Stephen and Barnabas, not just for once, but throughout, may be called: πλήρης Πνεύματος Ἁγίου, 6:5; 11:24. The proof, that Cornelius and his followers have the unquestionable right to be recognised as Christians, lies not in the baptism, which they have not yet received, but in the holy spirit, which has come upon them, 10:44-48 cf. 11:15 17.The μαθηταὶ at Antioch in Pisidia, believers from the Gentiles were not baptised as far as we know, but they “were”, apparently through and through, “filled with holy spirit”, 13:52.
The Gentiles hear the preaching of the Gospel, become believers and receive the holy spirit, Peter says, as if these three things formed a well-concluded whole, without mentioning baptism, 15:7-8. The μαθηταὶ at Ephesus, with whom Paul comes into contact and who have never heard of the holy spirit, are not yet true “disciples”, even though they bear that name. They become so only when, under the imposition of Paul’s hands, the Holy Spirit has come upon them, 19:1-7.
Although 2:1-13 is somewhat obscure in this respect, 1:5, 8 says clearly enough that the promise, the power of the holy spirit, i.e. the outpouring of that spirit according to 2:1-13 is for the apostles and not for everyone else.
Accordingly, Peter stands up to testify “with the eleven”, 2:14, and not with the 120 brethren. He wants the defeated in heart to repent and be baptised, after which they will receive the gift of the holy spirit, 2:38, but it does not appear that the latter occurs, even though they were baptised, 2:41. Whatever they are, according to the ideal drawing of 2:42-47and 4:32-37, a characteristic of these first Christians is not that they are in possession of holy spirit. Nor are Peter, Stephen, Paul always so, if in some circumstances they could emphatically be called πλησθείς or πλήρης πνεύματος Ἁγίου 4:8; 7:55; 13:9. On certain occasions, and so not always, all”, with whom the dismissed prisoners Peter and John had joined, were filled with holy spirit, 4:31. Philip christens and baptises Samaritans, but they receive holy spirit only later through the intervention of Peter and John, 8:4-5, 15-17. Simon the sorcerer also becomes a believer and is baptised, but he does not receive holy spirit, even forfeits his chance to do so and remains a Christian, 8:13, 1824. The chamberlain from Ethiopia is taught, baptised and travels his way with joy, obviously as a Christian, but he has not come into the enjoyment of holy spirit, 8:26-39. The believers from the circumcision are amazed that holy spirit is communicated to still unbaptised Gentiles. They apparently know baptism, but not the holy spirit, as a characteristic of the Christian, 10:44-48. Apollos is experienced in the Scriptures, well versed in the way of the Lord, even fervent in spirit, a zealous preacher of all things Jesus, but nevertheless familiar only with John’s baptism, i.e. he does not possess the holy spirit and does not even know anything about it, 18:2425 cf. 1:5; 11:16. He is not the only one; there are more μαθηταὶ who have never heard of the holy spirit and therefore never thought of holding it as a characteristic of the Christian as well as or instead of baptism, 19:1-3.
In contrast, according to another tradition, the possession of the holy spirit is the touchstone and hallmark of the Christian. Thus where the exalted Jesus, according to Ananias says to Saul-Paulus: ὅπως ἀναβλέψῃς καὶ πλησθῇς Πνεύματος Ἁγίου, where there is no mention of baptism, though it is mentioned in the immediately following message, 9:17-18;
where the βαπτισθήσεσθε ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ of Christians is contrasted with the βαπτίζειν ὕδατι of John, 11:16 cf. 1:5; where Stephen and Barnabas, not just for once, but throughout, may be called: πλήρης Πνεύματος Ἁγίου, 6:5; 11:24. The proof, that Cornelius and his followers have the unquestionable right to be recognised as Christians, lies not in the baptism, which they have not yet received, but in the holy spirit, which has come upon them, 10:44-48 cf. 11:15 17.The μαθηταὶ at Antioch in Pisidia, believers from the Gentiles were not baptised as far as we know, but they “were”, apparently through and through, “filled with holy spirit”, 13:52.
The Gentiles hear the preaching of the Gospel, become believers and receive the holy spirit, Peter says, as if these three things formed a well-concluded whole, without mentioning baptism, 15:7-8. The μαθηταὶ at Ephesus, with whom Paul comes into contact and who have never heard of the holy spirit, are not yet true “disciples”, even though they bear that name. They become so only when, under the imposition of Paul’s hands, the Holy Spirit has come upon them, 19:1-7.
Van Maanen, Paulus I
The mistakes are the following, due to the mixing mentioned above:
Consequently, he gives the confused impression that the μαθηταὶ mentioned above had to be baptised again before they could receive the holy spirit, 19:5; that Saul-Paul was baptised, even though this could be considered superfluous in view of the holy spirit promised to him, 9:18, as was true of those defeated on the first Christian Pentecost in Jerusalem, 2:38, 41; and that Peter still had Cornelius’ family, already filled with holy spirit, baptised, 10:44-48.
Peter and John came from Jerusalem and communicated the holy spirit to Samaritans who had “only been baptised in the name of the Lord Jesus”, 8:14-16, a counterpoint to the communication of the holy spirit by Paul to “disciples” in Ephesus who had never heard of it, 19:1-7.
It's an incredible mess Mac, no matter in which order you read it: none of the Christians has any clue about baptism, the holy spirit, or anything else. It evidently is all on loan, without any note attached
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
To the OP.
This is a topic that academia has already spent a lot of time on. First, we all know it is generally considered that the letters were before the gospels. And there are mentions of baptism in the letters, specifically 1 Corinthians, and Galatians as a ritual already present in Christianity. In Colossians and Romans we are let known it is a ritual to share in his death and rising. In 1 Corinthians 15 we even have a defense of the practice of baptism of the dead, since those before did not know Christ, so could not be saved in their life (we all loved our dear aunt Gertrude, and it would be so wrong for such a lovely and kind person to be shut out of heaven because she lived before Christ was revealed to us).
All this is established before the gospels. Although Acts is from a period after the baptism scene is written in the gospels, we learn of the continued practice of a baptism into "the way" which does not know Christ, and it is associated with followers of John (e.g., Apollos). This suggests that the practice of being initiated into full membership of the cult, goes back to the very earliest days, almost certainly prior to the split with Judaism.
What seems to have happened is that the story developed that Jesus himself was baptized. Probably it was first seen as a symbolic baptism of spirit, perhaps --as Giuseppe likes to claim-- in the heavenly realm. Then it migrated to an act by a human baptizer, which became associated with John. At that point the argument shifted to what that baptism was all about, and which "God" gave that sacrament to John. In short it got tangled up in the disputes among the sects, with the Synoptics and John ascribing different sources.
That's an evolutionary development process. Of course, mlinssen, who loves to find malice in all things, would call it making it up as you go along. I would prefer to say we have an escalating debate, where each sect responded to the others incorporating elements of the prior sect's claim, the countering with their own. But this is just me, as I see the competitive debate process as the real driver for the expanding material, not some straight line toward Catholicism. Different perspective.
Anyway, the answer is, it's a Christian baptism in the gospels.
This is a topic that academia has already spent a lot of time on. First, we all know it is generally considered that the letters were before the gospels. And there are mentions of baptism in the letters, specifically 1 Corinthians, and Galatians as a ritual already present in Christianity. In Colossians and Romans we are let known it is a ritual to share in his death and rising. In 1 Corinthians 15 we even have a defense of the practice of baptism of the dead, since those before did not know Christ, so could not be saved in their life (we all loved our dear aunt Gertrude, and it would be so wrong for such a lovely and kind person to be shut out of heaven because she lived before Christ was revealed to us).
All this is established before the gospels. Although Acts is from a period after the baptism scene is written in the gospels, we learn of the continued practice of a baptism into "the way" which does not know Christ, and it is associated with followers of John (e.g., Apollos). This suggests that the practice of being initiated into full membership of the cult, goes back to the very earliest days, almost certainly prior to the split with Judaism.
What seems to have happened is that the story developed that Jesus himself was baptized. Probably it was first seen as a symbolic baptism of spirit, perhaps --as Giuseppe likes to claim-- in the heavenly realm. Then it migrated to an act by a human baptizer, which became associated with John. At that point the argument shifted to what that baptism was all about, and which "God" gave that sacrament to John. In short it got tangled up in the disputes among the sects, with the Synoptics and John ascribing different sources.
That's an evolutionary development process. Of course, mlinssen, who loves to find malice in all things, would call it making it up as you go along. I would prefer to say we have an escalating debate, where each sect responded to the others incorporating elements of the prior sect's claim, the countering with their own. But this is just me, as I see the competitive debate process as the real driver for the expanding material, not some straight line toward Catholicism. Different perspective.
Anyway, the answer is, it's a Christian baptism in the gospels.
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Chrestian
(63) If one goes down to the water and comes up without taking anything and says “I am a Chrestian” then he has taken the name on loan. Yet if he takes the spirit which is pure, he has the gift of the name. He who has taken a gift doesn’t get her carried away from him – yet he who has taken on loan gets cut.
(72) Those who beget the name of the father, the child and the spirit which is pure don’t only beget them, but they are begotten to you. If one does not beget them, the other name will get carried away from him. Yet one takes them in the chrism of the […] of the power of the ⲥ⳨ⲟⲥ, which is what the apostles called “the right hand with the left hand” - this one Indeed is no longer a Chrestian, but an ΧΡΣ.
(101) The chreism has been made master over the baptism; for because of the chrism did they call us Christian, not because of the baptism. And the ΧΣ was called so because of the chrism, as the father indeed anointed the child, the child however anointed the apostles – and the apostles anointed us.
(72) Those who beget the name of the father, the child and the spirit which is pure don’t only beget them, but they are begotten to you. If one does not beget them, the other name will get carried away from him. Yet one takes them in the chrism of the […] of the power of the ⲥ⳨ⲟⲥ, which is what the apostles called “the right hand with the left hand” - this one Indeed is no longer a Chrestian, but an ΧΡΣ.
(101) The chreism has been made master over the baptism; for because of the chrism did they call us Christian, not because of the baptism. And the ΧΣ was called so because of the chrism, as the father indeed anointed the child, the child however anointed the apostles – and the apostles anointed us.
https://www.academia.edu/89583617/From_ ... _the_grave
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Splinter group side stream thought, nothing more, and not the earliest. It shows perhaps a desire to support a position that Christ was not baptized, much like the Marcionites argued.mlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:29 amChrestian
(63) If one goes down to the water and comes up without taking anything and says “I am a Chrestian” then he has taken the name on loan. Yet if he takes the spirit which is pure, he has the gift of the name. He who has taken a gift doesn’t get her carried away from him – yet he who has taken on loan gets cut.
(72) Those who beget the name of the father, the child and the spirit which is pure don’t only beget them, but they are begotten to you. If one does not beget them, the other name will get carried away from him. Yet one takes them in the chrism of the […] of the power of the ⲥ⳨ⲟⲥ, which is what the apostles called “the right hand with the left hand” - this one Indeed is no longer a Chrestian, but an ΧΡΣ.
(101) The chreism has been made master over the baptism; for because of the chrism did they call us Christian, not because of the baptism. And the ΧΣ was called so because of the chrism, as the father indeed anointed the child, the child however anointed the apostles – and the apostles anointed us.
https://www.academia.edu/89583617/From_ ... _the_grave
Actually, I'd maybe argue it's an example of how diverse and thus ubiquitous baptism was in the Christian and pre-Christian movement. It was a ritual and sacrament long before the gospels were written. Side streams are further evidence of that. But as the gospels are fully Christian, the baptism scene within them must be considered as Christian and fulfilling Christian needs. Extending baptism to even Jesus elevated even further the mystery of the ritual, made it even more desirable.
Re: John's Baptism of Jesus
Hinging on two differing premises there I seeStuart wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 12:24 pmSplinter group side stream thought, nothing more, and not the earliest. It shows perhaps a desire to support a position that Christ was not baptized, much like the Marcionites argued.mlinssen wrote: ↑Thu Mar 09, 2023 3:29 amChrestian
(63) If one goes down to the water and comes up without taking anything and says “I am a Chrestian” then he has taken the name on loan. Yet if he takes the spirit which is pure, he has the gift of the name. He who has taken a gift doesn’t get her carried away from him – yet he who has taken on loan gets cut.
(72) Those who beget the name of the father, the child and the spirit which is pure don’t only beget them, but they are begotten to you. If one does not beget them, the other name will get carried away from him. Yet one takes them in the chrism of the […] of the power of the ⲥ⳨ⲟⲥ, which is what the apostles called “the right hand with the left hand” - this one Indeed is no longer a Chrestian, but an ΧΡΣ.
(101) The chreism has been made master over the baptism; for because of the chrism did they call us Christian, not because of the baptism. And the ΧΣ was called so because of the chrism, as the father indeed anointed the child, the child however anointed the apostles – and the apostles anointed us.
https://www.academia.edu/89583617/From_ ... _the_grave
Actually, I'd maybe argue it's an example of how diverse and thus ubiquitous baptism was in the Christian and pre-Christian movement. It was a ritual and sacrament long before the gospels were written. Side streams are further evidence of that. But as the gospels are fully Christian, the baptism scene within them must be considered as Christian and fulfilling Christian needs. Extending baptism to even Jesus elevated even further the mystery of the ritual, made it even more desirable.
The baptism in the NT indeed is a completely mystery, utterly non descript, and it wildly varies.
Philip has a very consistent and gradual approach to it - oh and by the way, indeed he refutes some Christian stuff, such as the virgin birth and the resurrection
On your alleged "ritual and sacrament long before the gospels were written", I particularly liked Adler's "The origins of Judaism"
It follows that, as the evidence stands today, we can quite confidently establish the first half of the first century BCE as the rough terminus ante quem for the appearance of the earliest stepped pools. Exactly how much time before this chronological limit the first installations actually appeared is impossible to say at present. Evidence that might help toward answering this question should be sought in Judean sites abandoned prior to this terminus ante quem and in which no stepped pools have been found. For the time being, Nebi Samwil appears to be one such site. Its location in the heart of Judea, right on the outskirts of Jerusalem, strongly suggests that its inhabitants were Judean. The site was apparently abandoned sometime during the first half of the first century BCE, perhaps during the reign of Alexander Jannaeus.123 The fact that no stepped pools have been found at the site, despite the fact that a large area (about one acre) of an impressively well-preserved residential quarter has been uncovered, might suggest that the advent of immersion pools occurred not much prior to our terminus ante quem. While the negative evidence from Nebi Samwil is suggestive, any final conclusions must be suspended until more data from additional sites become available.
Some have called Philip the Rosetta stone to Christian origins.
After they read the paper