Markus Vinzent's claim about Marcion

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Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Markus Vinzent's claim about Marcion

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ulan wrote:The similarity of Luke and Marcion is a given. That's not the point he is trying to discuss. His point was that this whole passage in Luke, Matthew, John and gPeter Is only in parallel to Mark when the verse is also present in Marcion. If the verse isn't in Marcion, the text in the other gospels diverges from Mark.

I have no time to check that now, but that's what this post was trying to say.
Epiphanius (Panarion) attested for Marcion (24:5) the greek wording (last paragraph here):
Εἶπαν οἱ ἐν ἐσθῆτι λαμπρᾷ· τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν; ἠγέρθη, μνήσθητε ὅσα ἐλάλησεν ἔτι ὢν μεθ' ὑμῶν, ὅτι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου παθεῖν καὶ παραδοθῆναι
Of interest are only the first words
Εἶπαν οἱ ἐν ἐσθῆτι λαμπρᾷ· τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν;
They said – (they) in the splendid robes –: Why seek you the living among the dead?
Marcion here differs slightly from Luke 24:5
τὸ πρόσωπον εἰς τὴν γῆν εἶπον πρὸς αὐτάς Τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν·
the faces to the ground, they said (εἶπον) to them (πρὸς αὐτάς), Why seek you the living among the dead?
Note: No minor reading for the differences to Marcion is attested!

two differences
1. Luke does not mention here the clothes
2. Luke's wording is "they said to them"

all others here agree with Luke
1. no mention of the clothes after the word "say" or "declare"
2. all have "to them" or "to the woman"

Mark 16:6
ὁ δὲ λέγει αὐταῖς Μὴ ἐκθαμβεῖσθε· Ἰησοῦν ζητεῖτε τὸν Ναζαρηνὸν
moreover he says (λέγει) to them (αὐταῖς), Not be amazed Jesus you seek, the Nazarene,

Matthew 28:5
ἀποκριθεὶς δὲ ὁ ἄγγελος εἶπεν ταῖς γυναιξίν Μὴ φοβεῖσθε ὑμεῖς· οἶδα γὰρ ὅτι Ἰησοῦν τὸν ἐσταυρωμένον ζητεῖτε
answering moreover, the angel said (εἶπεν) to the women (ταῖς γυναιξίν), not Fear you know indeed that Jesus, the [One] having been crucified, seek.

Peter
νεανισκον καθεζομενον μεσω του ταφου, ωραιον και περιβεβλημενον στολην λαμπροτατην οστις εφη αυταις Τι ηλθατε; τινα ζητειτε; μη τον σταυρωθεντα
young man seated in the middle of the sepulcher, comely and clothed with a splendid robe, who declared (εφη) to them (αυταις): 'Why have you come? Whom do you seek? Not that one who was crucified?
Last edited by Kunigunde Kreuzerin on Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

next point Marcion (24:5-6)
τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν; ἠγέρθη, μνήσθητε ὅσα ἐλάλησεν ἔτι ὢν μεθ' ὑμῶν, ὅτι δεῖ τὸν υἱὸν τοῦ ἀνθρώπου παθεῖν καὶ παραδοθῆναι
Luke 24:5-6
Τί ζητεῖτε τὸν ζῶντα μετὰ τῶν νεκρῶν· οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε, ἀλλὰ ἠγέρθη. μνήσθητε ὡς ἐλάλησεν ὑμῖν
Why seek you the living among the dead? Not he is here, but is risen! Remember how he spoke to you, yet being in Galilee,
Marcion ommited: "οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε" - not he is here

Mark 16:6
ἠγέρθη, οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε· ἴδε ὁ τόπος ὅπου ἔθηκαν αὐτόν
He is risen! Not he is here

Matthew 28:6
οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε· ἠγέρθη γὰρ καθὼς εἶπεν
Not he is here. He is risen!

Peter
οτι ουκ εστιν; ανεστη γαρ και απηλθεν
because he is not here. For he got up and gone away


EDIT: note textual variants Luke 24:6

οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε, ἀλλὰ or ἀλλ' ἠγέρθη] p75 ‭א A B C3 E F G H K L (W ἀνέστη) X Δ Θ Π Ψ 063 070 f1 f13 28 33 157 180 205 565 579 597 700 892 1006 1009 1010 1071 1079 1195 1216 1230 1241 1242 1243 1253 1292 1342 1344 1365 1424 1505 1546 1646 2148 2174 Byz Lect itaur itf itq vg syrc syrs syrh syrpal copsa copbo armmss (eth) geo1 geoA slav Eusebius Amphilochius Augustine Cyril ς [[WH]] NR ND Riv Dio TILC Nv [[NM]]
οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε· ἠγέρθη] (see Matthew 28:6) C* syrp copbo(ms) Diatessaron (Marcion according to Epiphanius omit οὐκ ἔστιν ὧδε) Gregory-Nyssa (Epiphanius) CEI
ἠγέρθη ἐκ νεκρῶν] itc
omit (Western non-interpolation)] D (Codex Bezae) ita itb itd ite itff2 itl itr1 armmss geoB Marcion
Stephan Huller
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Stephan Huller »

A usual sign of respect is to spell an academic's name correctly
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

completely agree
Ulan
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Ulan »

Stephan Huller wrote:A usual sign of respect is to spell an academic's name correctly
That's a typical "Denglish" mistake. Germans tend to overcorrect, so this German guy suddenly gets an English name.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Stephan Huller »

Is it an English name? It's the German form of Vincent no?
Ulan
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Ulan »

Stephan Huller wrote:Is it an English name? It's the German form of Vincent no?
That's what I implied. Kunigunde accidentally translated the name together with the rest of her post.
Stephan Huller
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Stephan Huller »

You see, reading comprehension skills you can trust :cheeky:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Stephan Huller wrote:You see, reading comprehension skills you can trust :cheeky:
My old friend Henry Gondorff would say: Tough luck, Vinnihan. Couple more like that and we can all go to bed early, huh, boys?
Stephan Huller
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Re: Vincent's claim about Marcion

Post by Stephan Huller »

Ich habe Fehler gemacht, aber ich war immer aufrichtig
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