New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

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Secret Alias
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

The original citation is from the "Jew of Celsus" in Book 2 Chapter 4:
Εἶτα λέγει ὁ παρ' αὐτῷ Ἰουδαῖος πρὸς τοὺς ἀπὸ τοῦ λαοῦ πιστεύσαντας ὅτι χθὲς καὶ πρώην καὶ ὁπηνίκα τοῦτον ἐκολάζομεν βουκολοῦντα ὑμᾶς, ἀπέστητε τοῦ πατρίου νόμου, οὐδὲν ἀκριβὲς εἰδὼς ἐν οἷς ἔλεγεν, ὡς ἐδείξαμεν. Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δοκεῖ μοι δεινότητος ἔχεσθαι τὸ ἢ πῶς ἄρχεσθε μὲν ἀπὸ τῶν ἡμετέρων ἱερῶν, προϊόντες δὲ αὐτὰ ἀτιμάζετε, οὐκ ἔχοντες ἄλλην ἀρχὴν εἰπεῖν τοῦ δόγματος ἢ τὸν ἡμέτερον νόμον; Ἀληθῶς μὲν γὰρ Χριστιανοῖς ἡ εἰσαγωγή ἐστιν ἀπὸ τῶν ἱερῶν Μωϋσέως καὶ τῶν προφητικῶν γραμμάτων· [καὶ μετὰ τὴν εἰσαγωγὴν ἐν τῇ] διηγήσει καὶ σαφηνείᾳ αὐτῶν ἐστι τοῖς [εἰσαγομένοις ἡ προκοπή], ζητοῦσι τὸ «κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν» μυστήριον, [«χρόνοις αἰωνίοις» σεσιγημένον] <φανερωθὲν «δὲ νῦν»> ἐν ταῖς προφητικαῖς [φωναῖς καὶ τῇ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐπιφανείᾳ. Οὐχ, ὡς λέγετε δέ, οἱ προϊόντες ἀτιμάζουσι τὰ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ γεγραμμένα ἀλλὰ πλείονα τιμὴν αὐτοῖς περιτιθέασιν ἀποδεικνύντες, ὅσον ἔχει βάθος σοφῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων λόγων ἐκεῖνα τὰ γράμματα τὰ ὑπὸ Ἰουδαίων οὐ τεθεωρημένα, τῶν ἐπιπολαιότερον καὶ μυθικώτερον αὐτοῖς ἐντυγχανόντων.

"Then the Jew who was with him says to those who believed from the people, 'Since yesterday, and the day before, and whenever we have chastised this man who herds you, you have strayed from the ancestral law, not knowing accurately any of the things he said, as we have demonstrated. After this, it seems to me that there is a lack of sense, either in how you begin from our holy places but then dishonor them, not having any other principle to cite for your doctrine except our law? Truly, for Christians, the introduction is from the holy places of Moses and the prophetic writings; [and after the introduction in their exposition and clarity, there is progress for those being introduced, they seek the "mystery according to revelation," revealed "now" in the prophetic voices and the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not, as you say, do those who come forward dishonor what is written in the law, but they ascribe greater honor to them, demonstrating more depth of wisdom and inexplicable words in those letters unseen by the Jews, who encounter them more superficially and mythically.]
"

The response from Origen comes at the end of the entire section with the "Jew":
Εἶτ' ἐπίλογος τοῦ Ἰουδαίου ἐπὶ τούτοις πᾶσί φησι περὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ· Ἐκεῖνος μὲν οὖν ἄνθρωπος ἦν, καὶ τοιοῦτος, οἷον αὐτὸ τὸ ἀληθὲς ἐμφανίζει καὶ ὁ λόγος δείκνυσιν. Οὐκ οἶδα δὲ εἰ ἄνθρωπος, τολμήσας ἐπισπεῖραι πάσῃ τῇ οἰκουμένῃ τὴν κατ' αὐτὸν θεοσέβειαν καὶ διδασκαλίαν, δύναται ἀθεεὶ ποιῆσαι ὃ βούλεται καὶ κρείττων γενέσθαι πάντων τῶν ἀντιπραττόντων τῇ νομῇ τῆς διδασκαλίας αὐτοῦ, βασιλέων τε καὶ ἡγουμένων καὶ συγκλήτου βουλῆς Ῥωμαίων καὶ τῶν πανταχοῦ ἀρχόντων καὶ δήμων. Πῶς δὲ καὶ ἀνθρώπου φύσις, μηδὲν ἔχουσα κρεῖττον ἐν ἑαυτῇ, δύναται τοσοῦτον ἐπιστρέψαι πλῆθος; Καὶ οὐ θαυμαστὸν εἰ τῶν φρονίμων ἀλλὰ καὶ τῶν ἀλογωτάτων καὶ τοῖς πάθεσιν ἐγκειμένων καὶ ὅσον ἐπὶ τῇ ἀλογίᾳ χαλεπώτερον μετατιθε μένων εἰς τὸ σωφρονέστερον. Ἀλλ' ἐπεὶ δύναμις τοῦ θεοῦ ὁ Χριστὸς ἦν καὶ σοφία τοῦ πατρός, διὰ τοῦτο ταῦτα πεποίηκε καὶ ἔτι ποιεῖ, κἂν μήτε Ἰουδαῖοι μήτε Ἕλληνες βούλωνται, οἱ ἀπιστοῦντες αὐτοῦ τῷ λόγῳ. Ἡμεῖς οὖν οὐ παυσόμεθα πιστεύοντες τῷ θεῷ κατὰ τὰς Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ὑποθήκας καὶ τοὺς τυφλώττοντας περὶ θεοσέβειαν ἐθέλοντες ἐπιστρέφειν, κἂν οἱ ἀληθῶς τυφλώτ τοντες λοιδορῶνται ἡμῖν ὡς τυφλώττουσι καὶ οἱ βουκο λοῦντες, εἴτε Ἰουδαῖοι εἴτε Ἕλληνες, τοὺς συγκατατιθεμένους αὐτοῖς ἡμῖν ἐγκαλῶσιν ὡς βουκολοῦσι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους· καλήν γε βουκόλησιν, ἵν' ἀντὶ ἀκολάστων σώφρονες γένωνται ἢ προκόπτοντές γε ἐπὶ σωφροσύνην, καὶ ἀντὶ ἀδίκων δίκαιοι ἢ προκόπτοντες ἐπὶ δικαιοσύνην, καὶ ἀντὶ ἀφρόνων φρόνιμοι ἢ ὁδεύοντες ἐπὶ τὴν φρόνησιν, καὶ ἀντὶ δειλῶν καὶ ἀγεννῶν καὶ ἀνάνδρων ἀνδρεῖοι καὶ καρτερικοί, καὶ μάλιστα τοῦτο ἐπιδεικνύμενοι ἐν τοῖς ὑπὲρ εὐσεβείας τῆς εἰς τὸν κτίσαντα ὅλα θεὸν ἀγῶσιν. Ἦλθεν οὖν οὐχ ὑπὸ ἑνὸς προφήτου ἀλλ' ὑπὸ πάντων προκηρυχθεὶς Ἰησοῦς Χριστός. Καὶ τοῦτο δὲ τῆς ἀμαθίας ἦν Κέλσου, περιθεῖναι τῷ ἰουδαϊκῷ προσώπῳ ἕνα προφήτην προειρηκέναι περὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ. Καὶ ἐπεὶ ταῦτα ὁ παρὰ τῷ Κέλσῳ Ἰουδαῖος εἰσῆκται λέγων ὡς δῆθεν κατὰ τὸν ἑαυτοῦ νόμον καὶ αὐτοῦ που κατέπαυσε τὸν λόγον, καὶ ἄλλα εἰπὼν οὐ μνήμης ἄξια, καὶ αὐτὸς ἐνθάδε καταπαύσω τὸ δεύτερον τῶν πρὸς τὸ σύγγραμμα αὐτοῦ ὑπαγορευθέντων μοι. Θεοῦ δὲ διδόντος καὶ τῆς Χριστοῦ δυνάμεως τῇ ψυχῇ ἡμῶν ἐπιδημούσης, πειρασόμεθα ἐν τῷ τρίτῳ πρὸς τὰ ἑξῆς τῷ Κέλσῳ γραφέντα πραγμα τεύσασθαι

"Then the conclusion of the Jew on these matters concerning Jesus: 'This man indeed was human, and such, that he clearly manifests the truth and the word shows. But I do not know whether a man, daring to spread throughout the whole world the reverence and teaching regarding him, can accomplish what he wishes and become superior to all those opposing his doctrine, kings and rulers and the Roman senate and all the rulers and peoples everywhere. But how is it that human nature, having nothing superior within itself, can turn such a multitude? And it is not surprising if not only the wise but also the most irrational, those sunk in passions and persisting more stubbornly in irrationality, turn to what is more sensible. But since Christ was the power of God and the wisdom of the Father, for this reason he has done and still does these things, even if neither Jews nor Greeks wish it, those who disbelieve his word. Therefore, we will not cease believing in God according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and we are willing to convert those blinded about godliness, even if those truly blind mock us as blind and those who herd, whether Jews or Greeks, accuse those who accept our teachings as herdsmen of men; a noble herding, so that instead of being undisciplined, they become wise or making progress toward prudence, and instead of being unjust, righteous or making progress toward righteousness, and instead of being foolish, wise or progressing toward wisdom, and instead of being cowardly and ignoble, courageous and enduring, and showing this especially in our efforts for the godliness toward the Creator God. Therefore, Jesus Christ came not just from one prophet but proclaimed by all, and this was a matter of ignorance for Celsus, to attach one prophet to the Jewish image regarding Christ. And since the Jew influenced by Celsus has been introduced here, claiming that supposedly according to his own law and will he silenced the word, and saying other things unworthy of remembrance, I too will stop here, having been reminded of the second part dictated to me for his text. But with God giving and Christ's power residing in our souls, as we dwell upon this, we will attempt in the third part to address what follows in Celsus' writing.'"
My guess is that the Jew section was written roughly contemporarily with the uprising in Alexandria (170 - 175 CE). The author was an Alexandrian Jew who sought to make Jesus appear to be the inspiration behind the recent revolts in the region. While this does not necessarily suggest that Celsus was Alexandrian, the fact now that the Jewish author cited by Celsus and Origen were Alexandrian, the likelihood that the entire "genre" was Alexandrian, including Celsus, seems more likely than not.
StephenGoranson
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by StephenGoranson »

But, evidently, Origen never heard of Celsus nor the (hypothetical) Jewish text during his time in Alexandria, but only later when his patron, who was then in Asia Minor (where he heard of Celsus?) coerced him into writing a rebuttal.
Secret Alias
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

Why ia that so? People don't admit arguments against their thesis readily.
Secret Alias
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

I think the Jew was relatively well known.
Secret Alias
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

The reference to Jews and the expectation of the Son of God is also worth noting.
StephenGoranson
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by StephenGoranson »

Celsus was probably dead by the time Origen wrote. I believe he hadn't heard of him before, in Alexandria, or even later, until asked to respond. No threat to his thesis.
If that Jew were well known, why did no one else, that we know of, know about him, or quote his text, or give his name?
andrewcriddle
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by andrewcriddle »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Feb 27, 2024 6:58 am The original citation is from the "Jew of Celsus" in Book 2 Chapter 4:
Εἶτα λέγει ὁ παρ' αὐτῷ Ἰουδαῖος πρὸς τοὺς ἀπὸ τοῦ λαοῦ πιστεύσαντας ὅτι χθὲς καὶ πρώην καὶ ὁπηνίκα τοῦτον ἐκολάζομεν βουκολοῦντα ὑμᾶς, ἀπέστητε τοῦ πατρίου νόμου, οὐδὲν ἀκριβὲς εἰδὼς ἐν οἷς ἔλεγεν, ὡς ἐδείξαμεν. Μετὰ δὲ ταῦτα δοκεῖ μοι δεινότητος ἔχεσθαι τὸ ἢ πῶς ἄρχεσθε μὲν ἀπὸ τῶν ἡμετέρων ἱερῶν, προϊόντες δὲ αὐτὰ ἀτιμάζετε, οὐκ ἔχοντες ἄλλην ἀρχὴν εἰπεῖν τοῦ δόγματος ἢ τὸν ἡμέτερον νόμον; Ἀληθῶς μὲν γὰρ Χριστιανοῖς ἡ εἰσαγωγή ἐστιν ἀπὸ τῶν ἱερῶν Μωϋσέως καὶ τῶν προφητικῶν γραμμάτων· [καὶ μετὰ τὴν εἰσαγωγὴν ἐν τῇ] διηγήσει καὶ σαφηνείᾳ αὐτῶν ἐστι τοῖς [εἰσαγομένοις ἡ προκοπή], ζητοῦσι τὸ «κατὰ ἀποκάλυψιν» μυστήριον, [«χρόνοις αἰωνίοις» σεσιγημένον] <φανερωθὲν «δὲ νῦν»> ἐν ταῖς προφητικαῖς [φωναῖς καὶ τῇ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ἐπιφανείᾳ. Οὐχ, ὡς λέγετε δέ, οἱ προϊόντες ἀτιμάζουσι τὰ ἐν τῷ νόμῳ γεγραμμένα ἀλλὰ πλείονα τιμὴν αὐτοῖς περιτιθέασιν ἀποδεικνύντες, ὅσον ἔχει βάθος σοφῶν καὶ ἀπορρήτων λόγων ἐκεῖνα τὰ γράμματα τὰ ὑπὸ Ἰουδαίων οὐ τεθεωρημένα, τῶν ἐπιπολαιότερον καὶ μυθικώτερον αὐτοῖς ἐντυγχανόντων.

"Then the Jew who was with him says to those who believed from the people, 'Since yesterday, and the day before, and whenever we have chastised this man who herds you, you have strayed from the ancestral law, not knowing accurately any of the things he said, as we have demonstrated. After this, it seems to me that there is a lack of sense, either in how you begin from our holy places but then dishonor them, not having any other principle to cite for your doctrine except our law? Truly, for Christians, the introduction is from the holy places of Moses and the prophetic writings; [and after the introduction in their exposition and clarity, there is progress for those being introduced, they seek the "mystery according to revelation," revealed "now" in the prophetic voices and the appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ. Not, as you say, do those who come forward dishonor what is written in the law, but they ascribe greater honor to them, demonstrating more depth of wisdom and inexplicable words in those letters unseen by the Jews, who encounter them more superficially and mythically.]
"

The response from Origen comes at the end of the entire section with the "Jew":
Εἶτ' ἐπίλογος τοῦ Ἰουδαίου ἐπὶ τούτοις πᾶσί φησι περὶ τοῦ Ἰησοῦ· Ἐκεῖνος μὲν οὖν ἄνθρωπος ἦν, καὶ τοιοῦτος, οἷον αὐτὸ τὸ ἀληθὲς ἐμφανίζει καὶ ὁ λόγος δείκνυσιν. Οὐκ οἶδα δὲ εἰ ἄνθρωπος, τολμήσας ἐπισπεῖραι πάσῃ τῇ οἰκουμένῃ τὴν κατ' αὐτὸν θεοσέβειαν καὶ διδασκαλίαν, δύναται ἀθεεὶ ποιῆσαι ὃ βούλεται καὶ κρείττων γενέσθαι πάντων τῶν ἀντιπραττόντων τῇ νομῇ τῆς διδασκαλίας αὐτοῦ, βασιλέων τε καὶ ἡγουμένων καὶ συγκλήτου βουλῆς Ῥωμαίων καὶ τῶν πανταχοῦ ἀρχόντων καὶ δήμων. Πῶς δὲ καὶ ἀνθρώπου φύσις, μηδὲν ἔχουσα κρεῖττον ἐν ἑαυτῇ, δύναται τοσοῦτον ἐπιστρέψαι πλῆθος; Καὶ οὐ θαυμαστὸν εἰ τῶν φρονίμων ἀλλὰ καὶ τῶν ἀλογωτάτων καὶ τοῖς πάθεσιν ἐγκειμένων καὶ ὅσον ἐπὶ τῇ ἀλογίᾳ χαλεπώτερον μετατιθε μένων εἰς τὸ σωφρονέστερον. Ἀλλ' ἐπεὶ δύναμις τοῦ θεοῦ ὁ Χριστὸς ἦν καὶ σοφία τοῦ πατρός, διὰ τοῦτο ταῦτα πεποίηκε καὶ ἔτι ποιεῖ, κἂν μήτε Ἰουδαῖοι μήτε Ἕλληνες βούλωνται, οἱ ἀπιστοῦντες αὐτοῦ τῷ λόγῳ. Ἡμεῖς οὖν οὐ παυσόμεθα πιστεύοντες τῷ θεῷ κατὰ τὰς Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ ὑποθήκας καὶ τοὺς τυφλώττοντας περὶ θεοσέβειαν ἐθέλοντες ἐπιστρέφειν, κἂν οἱ ἀληθῶς τυφλώτ τοντες λοιδορῶνται ἡμῖν ὡς τυφλώττουσι καὶ οἱ βουκο λοῦντες, εἴτε Ἰουδαῖοι εἴτε Ἕλληνες, τοὺς συγκατατιθεμένους αὐτοῖς ἡμῖν ἐγκαλῶσιν ὡς βουκολοῦσι τοὺς ἀνθρώπους· καλήν γε βουκόλησιν, ἵν' ἀντὶ ἀκολάστων σώφρονες γένωνται ἢ προκόπτοντές γε ἐπὶ σωφροσύνην, καὶ ἀντὶ ἀδίκων δίκαιοι ἢ προκόπτοντες ἐπὶ δικαιοσύνην, καὶ ἀντὶ ἀφρόνων φρόνιμοι ἢ ὁδεύοντες ἐπὶ τὴν φρόνησιν, καὶ ἀντὶ δειλῶν καὶ ἀγεννῶν καὶ ἀνάνδρων ἀνδρεῖοι καὶ καρτερικοί, καὶ μάλιστα τοῦτο ἐπιδεικνύμενοι ἐν τοῖς ὑπὲρ εὐσεβείας τῆς εἰς τὸν κτίσαντα ὅλα θεὸν ἀγῶσιν. Ἦλθεν οὖν οὐχ ὑπὸ ἑνὸς προφήτου ἀλλ' ὑπὸ πάντων προκηρυχθεὶς Ἰησοῦς Χριστός. Καὶ τοῦτο δὲ τῆς ἀμαθίας ἦν Κέλσου, περιθεῖναι τῷ ἰουδαϊκῷ προσώπῳ ἕνα προφήτην προειρηκέναι περὶ τοῦ Χριστοῦ. Καὶ ἐπεὶ ταῦτα ὁ παρὰ τῷ Κέλσῳ Ἰουδαῖος εἰσῆκται λέγων ὡς δῆθεν κατὰ τὸν ἑαυτοῦ νόμον καὶ αὐτοῦ που κατέπαυσε τὸν λόγον, καὶ ἄλλα εἰπὼν οὐ μνήμης ἄξια, καὶ αὐτὸς ἐνθάδε καταπαύσω τὸ δεύτερον τῶν πρὸς τὸ σύγγραμμα αὐτοῦ ὑπαγορευθέντων μοι. Θεοῦ δὲ διδόντος καὶ τῆς Χριστοῦ δυνάμεως τῇ ψυχῇ ἡμῶν ἐπιδημούσης, πειρασόμεθα ἐν τῷ τρίτῳ πρὸς τὰ ἑξῆς τῷ Κέλσῳ γραφέντα πραγμα τεύσασθαι

"Then the conclusion of the Jew on these matters concerning Jesus: 'This man indeed was human, and such, that he clearly manifests the truth and the word shows. But I do not know whether a man, daring to spread throughout the whole world the reverence and teaching regarding him, can accomplish what he wishes and become superior to all those opposing his doctrine, kings and rulers and the Roman senate and all the rulers and peoples everywhere. But how is it that human nature, having nothing superior within itself, can turn such a multitude? And it is not surprising if not only the wise but also the most irrational, those sunk in passions and persisting more stubbornly in irrationality, turn to what is more sensible. But since Christ was the power of God and the wisdom of the Father, for this reason he has done and still does these things, even if neither Jews nor Greeks wish it, those who disbelieve his word. Therefore, we will not cease believing in God according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, and we are willing to convert those blinded about godliness, even if those truly blind mock us as blind and those who herd, whether Jews or Greeks, accuse those who accept our teachings as herdsmen of men; a noble herding, so that instead of being undisciplined, they become wise or making progress toward prudence, and instead of being unjust, righteous or making progress toward righteousness, and instead of being foolish, wise or progressing toward wisdom, and instead of being cowardly and ignoble, courageous and enduring, and showing this especially in our efforts for the godliness toward the Creator God. Therefore, Jesus Christ came not just from one prophet but proclaimed by all, and this was a matter of ignorance for Celsus, to attach one prophet to the Jewish image regarding Christ. And since the Jew influenced by Celsus has been introduced here, claiming that supposedly according to his own law and will he silenced the word, and saying other things unworthy of remembrance, I too will stop here, having been reminded of the second part dictated to me for his text. But with God giving and Christ's power residing in our souls, as we dwell upon this, we will attempt in the third part to address what follows in Celsus' writing.'"
My guess is that the Jew section was written roughly contemporarily with the uprising in Alexandria (170 - 175 CE). The author was an Alexandrian Jew who sought to make Jesus appear to be the inspiration behind the recent revolts in the region. While this does not necessarily suggest that Celsus was Alexandrian, the fact now that the Jewish author cited by Celsus and Origen were Alexandrian, the likelihood that the entire "genre" was Alexandrian, including Celsus, seems more likely than not.
The Jewish Diaspora in Egypt was largely ended by the revolt at the end of the reign of Trajan. See for example https://bmcr.brynmawr.edu/2007/2007.08.23/ If Celsus' Jew is Alexandrian then he is presumably writing not much later than that.

Andrew Criddle
Secret Alias
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

There were Samaritans in Alexandria until the sixth century. The "Jew" might have been Samaritan. My friend Rory Boid has argued that in a published paper. https://www.academia.edu/42198109/A_Sam ... entury_A_D
Secret Alias
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Re: New Evidence for Celsus's True Word Being Written 177 - 180 CE

Post by Secret Alias »

While the reference to Jesus learning magic in Egypt is not decisive for an Egyptian origin for the Jew, when taken along with the aforementioned evidence it is yet another bit of support toward the idea that he, Celsus and Origen were all based in Alexandria.
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