Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

[Bernard Muller]

to Kapyong,

Essentially I think the phrase 'that world' is referring back to 'the firmament' mentioned previously, not to the earth which isn't mentioned there.

If it is the original text, then why would the beloved (an angel later christianized as Jesus and Christ and Son) pass through the firmament and then descend through the air?
"29. And again He descended into the firmament and He gave the password and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there;
[nothing happens here. Satan is not even mentioned]
30. And I saw when He descended unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them."

Cordially, Bernard

[Peter Kirby]

Clearly, I don't know how to do quotes here.

In the options, below your posts, uncheck "DIsable BBCode."

[MrMacSon]

to MrMacSon,

It is explicit here that Christ's sacrifice was performed in the "greater and more perfect tabernacle" which "not a part of this creation."

And where would that be said in Hebrews? (about the location of Christ`s sacrifice).

That statement, by cienfuegos, in his original post - http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... 798#p21798 - follows this passage from Hebrews 9:

11 But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that are now already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made with human hands, that is to say, is not a part of this creation. 12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

After which cienfuegos then said

It is explicit here that Christ's sacrifice was performed in the "greater and more perfect tabernacle" which "not a part of this creation." This tabernacle is juxtaposed against the "blood of goats and bulls." The 'crucifixion' on earth was not of a man, but of animals. The mirror image is not a human crucifixion, it is the temple sacrifice vs. the celestial sacrifice.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon and cienfuegos

And where would that be said in Hebrews? (about the location of Christ`s sacrifice).

You did not answer my question, again.
I thought you, MrMacSon, endorsed what cienfuegos wrote:

It is explicit here that Christ's sacrifice was performed in the "greater and more perfect tabernacle" which "not a part of this creation."

If you don't, just say it.
Now I ask cienfuegos:
And where would that be said in Hebrews? (about the location of Christ`s sacrifice).

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

Bernard, Read the first few posts on this thread.

eg.

There need not be an earthly sacrifice. The image is the imperfection of the sacrifices offered by the earthly priests.

...here [Hebrews 8.1-5] we're told that Jesus not only performed his sacrifice in the celestial temple....but that he had to do so ... The implication is that Jesus' blood must have been spilled on the heavenly duplicate of God's altar; not on earth, where there are already priests making blood sacrifices, which are less effective than celestial ones.

Hebrews 8:1-6:

1 Now the main point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.

3 Every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices, and so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already priests who offer the gifts prescribed by the law. 5 They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle: “See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.” 6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

perhaps Reread all of Hebrews.

I don't want to have to answer isolated passages of others that you have cherry-picked. Good day.

[GakuseiDon]

I want to rewind to the narrow form of the argument presented by GakuseiDon in the Bible and Interpretation thread and also upthread. I am going to try to summarize the argument there as:

• words translated as "in your form" in English appear in AoI 9:13
• that Carrier somehow missed this phrase
• that the meaning of "in your form" is something like, "as a flesh and blood human"
• because Jesus takes on forms corresponding to the level of the cosmos he is at, appearing as a flesh and blood human in 9:13 can only mean he decended all the way to earth, the place where flesh and blood humans are

Please correct this if I'm wrong, I do not wish to misrepresent the argument here.

Thanks Bertie. Some corrections and notes in blue:

• words translated as "in your form" in English appear in AoI 9:13 Yes, that's right. It appears in the Greek Ethiopic version, and also the earlier Latin S/L versions
• that Carrier somehow missed this phrase Yes. As I noted earlier in this thread, Carrier is consistent with Doherty in Doherty's J:NGNM. Carrier actually says he was inspired by Doherty's analysis of the AoI. So possibly he used Doherty without checking for himself. Note that Doherty, in later discussions with me on his book, conceded that the presence of "in your form" in 9.13 probably represented an appearance on earth
• that the meaning of "in your form" is something like, "as a flesh and blood human" No. The earlier texts appear to represent docetic beliefs, so "in your form" or "in your appearance" does not imply "flesh and blood human".
• because Jesus takes on forms corresponding to the level of the cosmos he is at, appearing as a flesh and blood human in 9:13 can only mean he decended all the way to earth, the place where flesh and blood humans are Yes. Note that the S/L versions explicitly state the form that the Beloved takes in each level. It states that the Beloved had the form of creatures in the firmament when in the firmament; and had the form of creatures in the air when the Beloved descended into the air from the firmament. So where would the Beloved have the form of a human? That's the issue

Now — like (I assume) the rest of you, I know diddly-squat about Ethiopic. But I used to know Latin at any rate, and in specie vestra which is the relevant phrase in 9:13 isn't exactly rocket science. While English "form" isn't a wrong translation of species per se, something like "appearance" is just as good, and even "appearance contrary to reality" or "superficial appearance" is an option. That indicates to me that while a translation/interpretation of 9:13 "in your form" as "flesh and blood human" may still be an option, so is a Jesus that outwardly looks human but isn't — an interpretation consistent with a Jesus who stops somewhere in the heavenly realm.

Even if the idea of a docetic Jesus could exist in the sky and be crucified there is consistent with ancient thinking, the AoI doesn't appear to leave any room for it to be done there. As I noted above, it explicitly states the form that the Beloved is in when in the firmament, and then the form it takes when it descends into the air. In neither levels does the Beloved have the form of a man.

Of course, even a Jesus on earth can still be consistent with mythicism. But the argument being addressed here is that the AoI supports a crucifixion in outer space.

Doceticism, a Jesus that outwardly looks human but isn't but which does come all the way down could very well be on the table here, too.

Agreed, and I argue that it is a "docetic" Jesus also. To be clear: I've never argued that "in your form" means "flesh and blood human". (I'm not sure where you have got that from, if you think that is my argument.)

At the very least, I don't see the short form of the argument presented in the links with with I led this post as being enough to overthrow Carrier's work on the AoI.

Given that the earlier AoI versions appear to represent a docetic belief, a belief that is documented in the literature; that Carrier missed "in your form" in 9.13 and its implications; that the form of the Beloved is explicitly stated in each level; then it shows that the AoI is not evidence for a belief in a Jesus crucified in outer space. And since Carrier refers back to the AoI on a number of occasions -- for example pps 47-8 where he uses it to help read Paul -- then those arguments could possibly be flipped.

[Bernard Muller]

to MrMacSon,

I don't want to have to answer isolated passages of others that you have cherry-picked. Good day.

In other words, you don't have any evidence, except peshering on the whole of Hebrews, or accepting Carrier & cienfuegos as primary evidence (or the word of God!).

Cordially, Bernard

[MrMacSon]

to MrMacSon,

I don't want to have to answer isolated passages of others that you have cherry-picked. Good day.

In other words, you don't have any evidence, except peshering on the whole of Hebrews, or accepting Carrier & cienfuegos as primary evidence (or the word of God!).

Cordially, Bernard

Your being less than cordial, Bernard. As I implied, it is a theological argument that I find interesting - there are several points cienfuegos & Carrier have made, in conjunction with a few passages from Hebrews, that I find compelling.

Arguing about alleged events in heaven, & events proposed in those times, is about as concrete as arguing about ghosts and leprechauns.

Now, please, leave me alone on this.

[Bertie]

Note that the S/L versions explicitly state the form that the Beloved takes in each level. It states that the Beloved had the form of creatures in the firmament when in the firmament; and had the form of creatures in the air when the Beloved descended into the air from the firmament. So where would the Beloved have the form of a human? That's the issue

Ah, this is the point that I missed; thank you for the clarification.

[Kapyong]

Gday all,

to Kapyong,

Essentially I think the phrase 'that world' is referring back to 'the firmament' mentioned previously, not to the earth which isn't mentioned there.

If it is the original text, then why would the beloved (an angel later christianized as Jesus and Christ and Son) pass through the firmament and then descend through the air?
"29. And again He descended into the firmament and He gave the password and His form was like theirs, and they did not praise Him there;
[nothing happens here. Satan is not even mentioned]
30. And I saw when He descended unto the angels of the air, and He was like one of them."
Cordially, Bernard

The original passage :

[10.8] 'Go and descend through all the heavens, descend to the firmament and to that world, even to the angel in the realm of the dead, but to Hell you shall not go.

All I am saying is that I think "and to that world" is simply scriptural repetition of "the firmament".
He still goes on to descend to the air (and possibly earth too.)

I understand one can argue this phrase means essentially "and to that world of earth".

Kapyong