Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

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Kapyong
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all :)
John T wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:24 pm Vellum is parchment made from animal skins. DNA will confirm what animals were used and what generation they came from.
http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/dna-and ... fic-method
Well, that site mentions DNA testing used to identify the animal species.

But there is no mention of using DNA to DATE vellum manuscripts,
nothing about "what generation they came from".

Only :
"DNA testing on it can reveal clues to animal population studies, animal husbandry, different historical animal breeds, and provenance (where the animal or skins originated from)."

Can you please give examples where DNA testing has been used to DATE a vellum manuscript ?

Kapyong
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Kapyong wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:14 am Gday all :)
John T wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:24 pm Vellum is parchment made from animal skins. DNA will confirm what animals were used and what generation they came from.
http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/dna-and ... fic-method
Well, that site mentions DNA testing used to identify the animal species.

But there is no mention of using DNA to DATE vellum manuscripts,
nothing about "what generation they came from".

Only :
"DNA testing on it can reveal clues to animal population studies, animal husbandry, different historical animal breeds, and provenance (where the animal or skins originated from)."

Can you please give examples where DNA testing has been used to DATE a vellum manuscript ?

Kapyong
I have no expert knowledge of this matter, but I have found a number of articles suggesting that DNA dating of parchment has been in development for at least a decade. For example: https://www.livescience.com/3300-dna-re ... ripts.html. I have no idea whether a method has been perfected by now.
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John T
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by John T »

Kapyong wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:14 am Gday all :)
John T wrote: Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:24 pm Vellum is parchment made from animal skins. DNA will confirm what animals were used and what generation they came from.
http://www.sciencebuzz.org/blog/dna-and ... fic-method
Well, that site mentions DNA testing used to identify the animal species.

But there is no mention of using DNA to DATE vellum manuscripts,
nothing about "what generation they came from".

Only :
"DNA testing on it can reveal clues to animal population studies, animal husbandry, different historical animal breeds, and provenance (where the animal or skins originated from)."

Can you please give examples where DNA testing has been used to DATE a vellum manuscript ?

Kapyong
If you have a breed of animal used for the vellum that did not exist in the 4th century then you have a case for fraud. If the ink has DNA of a plant not known to the region at the time, then you have fraud. There are many variables and scenarios.

I'm sorry but this will be the last link I'm going to provide on how DNA testing can be a useful tool when analyzing animal skins and/or used to trace genetic history.

https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article ... 215393.php

Perhaps you missed the point, that being, there are many other reliable scientific methods that can quickly determine if the Codex Sinaiticus is an ancient document rather than the subjective finding that it looks really old to me. :cheers:

John T
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
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Kapyong
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Kapyong »

Gday Ben C. Smith and all :)
Ben C. Smith wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 8:44 am I have no expert knowledge of this matter, but I have found a number of articles suggesting that DNA dating of parchment has been in development for at least a decade. For example: https://www.livescience.com/3300-dna-re ... ripts.html. I have no idea whether a method has been perfected by now.
Thanks,
some searching didn't reveal more than Prof. Stinson's early hopes.

DNA testing can not date vellum in any direct sense, but can be used to compare MSS and identify related animals (and the species too.) Vaguely like the tree-ring series.

It doesn't seem to be a very active area of research though.


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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all,
John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:14 am If you have a breed of animal used for the vellum that did not exist in the 4th century then you have a case for fraud. If the ink has DNA of a plant not known to the region at the time, then you have fraud. There are many variables and scenarios.
Yup :)
But you brought up the subject of DNA testing of vellum as if it was a done thing for dating MSS, as if avoiding it was as suspicious as dodging a paternity test.

That sounded interesting, and relevant, and new to me - so I asked for more details, and examples.

Turns out DNA testing of vellum is not a done thing, cannot directly date a MSS, and has only ever been used once on a few MSS in the work of Prof. Stinson AFAICT.

Sure, the species could tell us something - but only over a very wide range probably, no-where near as accurate as other methods.
John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:14 am I'm sorry but this will be the last link I'm going to provide on how DNA testing can be a useful tool when analyzing animal skins and/or used to trace genetic history.
https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article ... 215393.php
I'm sorry too :(
Sorry to find out that your subject of DNA testing of vellum MSS turns out to be nothing more than a experimental technique which is little used and of little use for dating.

John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:14 am Perhaps you missed the point, that being, there are many other reliable scientific methods that can quickly determine if the Codex Sinaiticus is an ancient document rather than the subjective finding that it looks really old to me. :cheers:
John T
Pardon ?
The point was you bringing up the subject of DNA testing for dating vellum.


Kapyong
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Steven Avery »

This was an interesting discussion.

One of the more interesting DNA articles is this one, with a video.

Goats, bookworms, a monk’s kiss: Biologists reveal the hidden history of ancient gospels
Ann Gibbons - July 25, 2017
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/07/ ... nt-gospels

However, as we discuss in the other thread, there is a whole array of materials testing for parchment and ink.

As an example, fakes often get discovered because the inks used have ingredients that have a first production date that is fairly recent. Authenticity analysis is not usually a one-shot idea, although Wolfgang Beltracchi thought his main mistake was using Titanium White. Ms. 2427 used Prussian Blue.

Here is an interesting spot where you can compare visually the Tischendorf 1845 ink with supposed ancient inks:

comparing acid-wear of 1845 ink with theorized 350 and 600 AD ink
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthrea ... 350-AD-ink

And I also have this on:

Palaeographic Puzzles and the Tischendorf Plug-in-the-Date Game
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showthrea ... Game/page2

There is special stain analysis as well. A good science lab might find out why London has stains and streaks, while Leipzig does not, since they should have had the same condition until 1844.

BAM worked on the DSS, and has an array of tools in their testing arsenal.

============================

INTERVIEW:

Bob Simon: Do you think you did anything wrong?

Wolfgang Beltracchi: Yes, I use the wrong titanium white, yeah.

============================

With Sinaiticus, the lack of deterioration, in parchment and ink, is itself a strong indication that it is not an ancient hot, dry desert manuscript. Then you have the colour and stain distinction, 1844 Leipzig to 1859 British Library, that matches the historical account. Plenty that can be tested.

Steven
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by John T »

Kapyong wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:13 am Gday all,
John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:14 am If you have a breed of animal used for the vellum that did not exist in the 4th century then you have a case for fraud. If the ink has DNA of a plant not known to the region at the time, then you have fraud. There are many variables and scenarios.
Yup :)
But you brought up the subject of DNA testing of vellum as if it was a done thing for dating MSS, as if avoiding it was as suspicious as dodging a paternity test.

That sounded interesting, and relevant, and new to me - so I asked for more details, and examples.

Turns out DNA testing of vellum is not a done thing, cannot directly date a MSS, and has only ever been used once on a few MSS in the work of Prof. Stinson AFAICT.

Sure, the species could tell us something - but only over a very wide range probably, no-where near as accurate as other methods.
John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:14 am I'm sorry but this will be the last link I'm going to provide on how DNA testing can be a useful tool when analyzing animal skins and/or used to trace genetic history.
https://www.seattlepi.com/local/article ... 215393.php
I'm sorry too :(
Sorry to find out that your subject of DNA testing of vellum MSS turns out to be nothing more than a experimental technique which is little used and of little use for dating.

John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:14 am Perhaps you missed the point, that being, there are many other reliable scientific methods that can quickly determine if the Codex Sinaiticus is an ancient document rather than the subjective finding that it looks really old to me. :cheers:
John T
Pardon ?
The point was you bringing up the subject of DNA testing for dating vellum.


Kapyong
Well, you got me. Turns out DNA testing much like radiocarbon dating is completely useless in determining if a document is a modern forgery or not.

Now since you caught me how about telling us what method is acceptable to you? :cheeky:
"It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of a thing he was never reasoned into."...Jonathan Swift
Steven Avery
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Steven Avery »

Actually it is not completely useless (and I think you were being a tad ironic).

As you pointed out, you might easily find flora and fauna that really fits one scenario over another. This was actually a significant part of the Shroud research (if I remember, they discovered plants from the nearby area of Jerusalem, Israel, which clearly favors authenticity.)

However, it is one tool in the toolbox. BAM from Berlin is the leader of the pack in these studies, afaik. Their planned studies of the Leipzig Sinaiticus pages were .. cancelled.

(Yes, Evangelicals generally do not like the Shroud, and I used to be opposed. However, I have a general rule .. follow the evidences. Also, folks do not realize that the RCC came to that table rather late.)
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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Kapyong »

Gday John T and all :)
John T wrote: Thu Jul 26, 2018 3:29 pm Well, you got me. Turns out DNA testing much like radiocarbon dating is completely useless in determining if a document is a modern forgery or not.

Now since you caught me how about telling us what method is acceptable to you? :cheeky:
No worries, mistakes happen :)

I'm just a curious amateur, so I accept what the experts do in terms of dating - which includes AFAIK :
  • paleography
  • internals like terminology and people's names
  • references in other books
  • stratigraphy maybe ? (the layer in which it was found)
  • carbon dating (in a few rare examples)
  • anything I missed ?
These methods still seem to leave room for a fair range of dates, seeing the arguments over P52 and the alleged First Century Mark e.g.


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Re: Codex Sinaiticus - the white parchment Friderico-Augustanus

Post by Kapyong »

Gday all :)
Steven Avery wrote: Fri Jul 27, 2018 5:41 am As you pointed out, you might easily find flora and fauna that really fits one scenario over another.
Presumably you mean that the DNA of sheep/lambs may be different between the 1st century vs the 19th century, right ?

So that a DNA test revealing the vellum of Sinaiticus was from the 19th century would prove it a forgery, right ?
A fair point, sheep have changed a bit in two millenia I daresay, let's look -

Here is a more recent study (than Prof. Stinson's) of DNA in 700 year old vellum MSS, from 2014 :
https://www.futurity.org/parchments-anc ... ck-815322/
http://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/ ... 0130379%20
But it still only tells us : "what kind of animals were used to make the parchments".

Apparently the Booroola (FECB) sheep mutation dates back only to the 18th century :
https://academic.oup.com/biolreprod/art ... 69/2723999
That sounds promising.

Merino sheep are only a couple of centuries old, sheep in the middle ages were rather different breeds, but it's not clear how these breeds differed genetically :
http://www.katiecannonscraft.com/sheep-medieval/

A genome for each breed would clarify that, but so far all we have is the one breed - Texel AFAIK.

Here is a detailed scholarly paper looking into the speciation of modern sheep :
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... 028771.pdf

It's rather above my pay-grade, but the times they cite are often in mega years and the species cluster diagrams cover 500 kyears and 125 kyears.

Some references to only millenia include :
"Only a small number of substitutions have then accumulated in the ca. 11 000 years (Ryder 1984) of further breeding. These do not allow further differentiation of the domestic sheep based on mtDNA data using the current approach and thus lead to the unresolved branching pattern and short branches within the two clusters of domestic sheep."

Meanwhile, sheep mutate at the rate of 1.1 +/- 0.5 x 10-4 mutations/gamete per locus says this :
https://genome.cshlp.org/content/6/9/876.full.pdf

Which seems a HUGE rate - aren't there ~2.6 Gb in the sheep genome ? :
http://www.livestockgenomics.csiro.au/sheep/oar3.1.php

Perhaps a more knowledgable member can help explain that.


So,
out of all that -

Sheep have certainly changed in the last two millenia.
But, it's not clear how much observable genetic change has occured in that time,
and those changes maybe swamped by the amount of variation present in the extant sheep breeds.
(Assuming too that they used sheep not goat.)

Note that the sample used was 2cm by 2cm in size, and 5cm by 5cm was mentioned somewhere.
I doubt they'll be using that method on p52 :)

DNA testing of vellum doesn't look very useful :(

Kapyong
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