No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

[Giuseppe]

In other words, only the Gnostic position is credible and only neo-athiests are smart enough to understand early Christian history?

my problem with you is that you are too much irrationally* hostile to Marcion, to talk objectively about the synoptic question with Mcn in it.

* : excessive religious faith.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

what escapes me is why Klinghardt is ignoring deliberately ...

For me it's the opposite. Up until now I thought reading Klinghardt would be a waste of time. But I have a better understanding of what he's doing now and I think his point of view sheds quite an interesting light on a couple of things.

btw One always thinks that John is far away from these synoptic discussions.

John 2:12

After this, He went down (descended - κατέβη) to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples, and they stayed there not many days.

[John T]

In other words, only the Gnostic position is credible and only neo-athiests are smart enough to understand early Christian history?

my problem with you is that you are too much irrationally* hostile to Marcion, to talk objectively about the synoptic question with Mcn in it.

* : excessive religious faith.

Actually, you have a problem with evidence that doesn't line up perfectly with your crackpot theory which you know is a pile of garbage.

If not, you would be capable of having a civil discussion without hurling ad hominem attacks at those who poke holes in your crackpot theory.

Just saying what we already know.

John T is done with this thread.

[Giuseppe]

John 2:12

After this, He went down (descended - κατέβη) to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples, and they stayed there not many days.

ignoring the vain aggressivity of the apologist John Stautos, the Gnostic commenter Heracleon interpreted the descent on Capernaum in that earthly episode (John 2:12) as a descent from above in lower heavens.

[schillingklaus]

Crackpot theories are those of John T. (Markan prioritism, Pauline authenticism, Judean originism) Already Gerardus Johannes Petrus Josephus Bolland realized the impossibility of civilized discussions with these, exemplified by von Harnack.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

John 2:12

After this, He went down (descended - κατέβη) to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples, and they stayed there not many days.

the Gnostic commenter Heracleon interpreted the descent on Capernaum in that earthly episode (John 2:12) as a descent from above in lower heavens.

Did Heracleon assume that everything took place in heavenly realms and that Jesus' mother, his brothers and his disciples were also heavenly beings?

[schillingklaus]

Of course the (un)holy family must be understood as heavenly beings of the evil sort (archons), as the story is a Judaization and Euhemerization of an episode found in HYPOSTASIS OF THE ARCHONS where Sabaoth curses the rest of his archon family and joins The Father.

The awkward harmonization of gnostic deprecation of family and Judaist appreciation of family lead to the schizophreniac mixture found throughout Christianity, especially Catholicism.

[GakuseiDon]

John 2:12

After this, He went down (descended - κατέβη) to Capernaum, He and His mother, and His brothers, and His disciples, and they stayed there not many days.

the Gnostic commenter Heracleon interpreted the descent on Capernaum in that earthly episode (John 2:12) as a descent from above in lower heavens.

Did Heracleon assume that everything took place in heavenly realms and that Jesus' mother, his brothers and his disciples were also heavenly beings?

I don't think Heracleon believed that Jesus' family descended as well. According to Origen's Commentary on John, Book 10:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ohn10.html

But Heracleon, dealing with the words, "After this He went down to Capernaum," declares that they indicate the introduction of another transaction, and that the word "went down" is not without significance. "Capernaum," he says, "means these farthest-out parts of the world, these districts of matter, into which He descended, and because the place was not suitable, he says, He is not reported either to have done anything or said anything in it." Now if the Lord had not been reported in the other Gospels either as having done or said anything at Capernaum, we might perhaps have hesitated whether this view ought or ought not to be received. But that is far from being the case.

Origen refutes Heracleon by listing the things Jesus did in Capernaum from the Gospels, and concludes:

We have presented all these statements as to the Saviour's sayings and doings at Capernaum in order to refute Heracleon's interpretation of our passage, "Hence He is not said to have done or to have spoken anything there." He must either give two meanings to Capernaum, and show us his reasons for them, or if he cannot do this he must give up saying that the Saviour visited any place to no purpose. We, for our part, should we come to passages where even a comparison of the other Gospels fails to show that Jesus' visit to this place or that was not accompanied by any results, will seek with the divine assistance to make it clear that His coming was not in vain.

Earlier Origen discussed the descent of Jesus' mother and brothers as well, though not in context of Heracleon's belief. From the same link:

As for the passage presently before us, it gives in the order of events that on the sixth day the Saviour, after the business of the marriage at Cana of Galilee, went down with His mother and His brothers and His disciples to Capernaum, which means" field of consolation."...
---
But we must ask why His brothers are not called to the wedding: they were not there, for it is not said they were; but they go down to Capernaum with Him and His mother and His disciples. We must also examine why on this occasion they do not "go in to" Capernaum, nor "go up to," but "go down to" it. Consider if we must not understand by His brothers here the powers which went down along with Him, not called to the wedding according to the explanations given above, since it is in lower and humbler places than those who are called disciples of Christ, and in another way, that these brothers receive assistance. For if His mother is called, then there are some bearing fruit, and even to these the Lord goes down with the servants and disciples of the Word, to help such persons, His mother also being with Him. Those indeed who are called Capernaum appear not to be able to allow Jesus and those who went down with Him to make a longer stay with them: hence they remain with them not many days. For the lower field of consolation does not admit the illumination of many doctrines, but is only capable of a few.

I honestly find it hard to understand what Origen is arguing here. He accuses Heracleon of having two meanings for "Capernaum" while Origen himself also hints of two meanings.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

I don't think Heracleon believed that Jesus' family descended as well. According to Origen's Commentary on John, Book 10:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ohn10.html

Thanks GDon

It is interesting that Heracleon wrote a commentary on GJohn and developed his theology in it. This is comparable to the view that Marcion used an older gospel but presented his theology in a commentary (probably the antitheses).

[Giuseppe]

I see that prof Vinzent differs precisely from prof Kinghardt about Capernaum in the incipit of Mcn:

Most likely, no location of the appearance was given in Marcion’s text, as the witnesses differ in their locations and Tertullian only mentions Capharnaum once in the same passage where he also points to the heavens from where Christ has come down. ‘We do know that he [scil. Marcion] never called Christ a man of Nazareth … The Lord was not reared in Nazareth, nor is it his custom to visit the Nazarene synagogue, but only there is a custom of visiting the synagogue generally’, so J.R. Harris, Codex Bezae (1891), 232.

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/search?q=Descent&m=1

So, if the place of apparition is not clear, even more so it is unknown the place of provenance of the descent, therefore confirming the greater probability of a reading of a descent "from above", pace Kunigunde.