A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

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Stephan Huller
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A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by Stephan Huller » Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:31 pm

The resulting "de-carnated" form of the soul is described in the Dialogue of the Saviour (CG III, 5 : 143, 1o-23) as being "in nakedness" : "But I say to you that you will be blessed when you shall be naked for this (i.e., the possession of a fleshly garment) is not a great thing." Other passages, far too numerous to allude to here, support this conception of an ascent of the nude soul or spirit-self after death). For example, the Apocryphon of John (CG II, 1:9, 14-34); Epiphanius' report in Par. II. 26. 9, 154, 3, 1-2; Irenaeus' account of Marcion's teaching {Adv. llaer. I 27. 3); the Gospel of Mary (Grant, Gnosticism, p. 167); Celsus' description of an Ophite Diagram (Origen, Contra Cel., vi. 24-38); the account of Baruch by Justin (Grant, Gnosticism, p. 102); Irenaeus' account of Marcosian worship [Adv. Haer. I 2 1 . 4-5) ; the Apocryphon of James (CG I, 1: 13, 12-13. 19-20); the Dialogue of the Saviour (CG III, 5: 132, 11-12 and 134, 11-13); the Apocalypse of Paul (CG V, 2: 2o, 7-15. 21-22. 28-29); the First Apocalypse of James (CG V, 5:33, 1-25); the Second Apocalypse of James (CG V, 4: 46, 14-19; 57; 27-58, 4); the Second Treatise of the Great Seth (CG VII, 2: 57, 27-58, 4); and the apocryphal Letter of Peter to Philip (CG VIII, 2: 137, 6-9). 3)

Such a view, of course, differs radically from the Judaeo-Christian belief in "resurrection of the body," as such belief finds expression in passages like Daniel xii 2-4; Isa. xxvi 19; I Cor. xv; I Thess. iv; etc. Simon Magus' conviction, as reported in blah blah blah [Malcolm Peel Gnostic Eschatology and the New Testament in Essays on the Coptic Gnostic Library p. 152]
If the attestations for 'nakedness' of the soul being related to death is so widespread how can people argue that Morton Smith's alleged homosexuality is the best explanation of its presence in Mar Saba 65? I think scholars have to get laid more.

PhilosopherJay
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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by PhilosopherJay » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:17 am

Hi Stephan Huller,

Good points.

On the other hand, if the Jesus Christ character was a Jewish response to the Emperor Pius' Antinous cult, "naked with naked" might have meant "naked with naked."

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

ficino
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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by ficino » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:24 am

Already in Plato's eschatological myths we have the image of naked souls being judged by naked judges. Since they're all souls, the imagery is not about having sex (though eros is always around in Platonic philosophy).

outhouse
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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by outhouse » Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:00 am

Brings up good points about being blind to context.

Many words do not have the meaning we attribute, and there will be no evidence to clear some of these up.

This would also apply to many word we think we are certain about.


I make no judgment about SM

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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by EdwardM » Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:21 am

How can people argue that Morton Smith's alleged "homosexuality" (cough, cough) explain everything?

Simple. They are homophobic, Christ-psychosis infected imbeciles and they have to account for the finding of the epistle from Clement somehow. So like good dumbkopfs, I mean credentialed New Testament scholars (hahaha), they do what they usually do: they make stuff up.

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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by Stuart » Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:49 pm

My WAG is the opposite.

I think the passage 14:51-52 came into Mark from a marginal note occasioned by its relevance to (ἔφυγον πάντες) all the disciples fleeing upon Jesus' arrest, all leaving him.

That the young man (νεανίσκος) was clothed (περιβεβλημένος) in linen (σινδόνα) over his nakedness parallels the linen cloth (σινδόνι) placed on Jesus when he is entombed (Mark 15:46). When the two Mary's enter the tomb they see a young man (νεανίσκος) who is clothed (περιβεβλημένον) in a white robe (16:5). After the encounter the Gospel closes as the women flee (ἔφυγον) the tomb, seized with fear, just as Jesus was seized leading to the disciples to flee.

So the symbolism has to do with the resurrection. Revelation tells us some Christians believed the blood of Christ washed garments white as a result of its purity (Revelation 7:13-14, perhaps also the army in the heavens of Revelation 19:14). So what I ask myself is the symbolism of the loss of the garment, being naked? For that I turn to Paul (limiting myself to the Marcionite text), specifically 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 where we are speaking of being clothed in heavenly building a metaphor for the body. In verse 5:3 he says that putting on the heavenly building they will not be found naked. From this perspective, it seems the young man having fled Christ, losing his garment is now naked with his earthly body, having forsaken the heavenly. He now has the shame of facing his death naked (e.g., Revelation 3:18), having saved his life. The passage is thus an admonition not to betray Christ even when your life is in peril.

There is no sexuality involved in this. The vocabulary is consistent with the themes of the arrest, death, and resurrection, with the meaning of nakedness and clothing consistent with what we know in Paul of becoming a new man (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15:35-54, Galatians 6:15, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:15, 4:24, etc.)

This is my WAG on the passage.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:47 pm

Stephan Huller wrote:
Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:31 pm
The resulting "de-carnated" form of the soul is described in the Dialogue of the Saviour (CG III, 5 : 143, 1o-23) as being "in nakedness" : "But I say to you that you will be blessed when you shall be naked for this (i.e., the possession of a fleshly garment) is not a great thing." Other passages, far too numerous to allude to here, support this conception of an ascent of the nude soul or spirit-self after death). For example, the Apocryphon of John (CG II, 1:9, 14-34); Epiphanius' report in Par. II. 26. 9, 154, 3, 1-2; Irenaeus' account of Marcion's teaching {Adv. llaer. I 27. 3); the Gospel of Mary (Grant, Gnosticism, p. 167); Celsus' description of an Ophite Diagram (Origen, Contra Cel., vi. 24-38); the account of Baruch by Justin (Grant, Gnosticism, p. 102); Irenaeus' account of Marcosian worship [Adv. Haer. I 2 1 . 4-5) ; the Apocryphon of James (CG I, 1: 13, 12-13. 19-20); the Dialogue of the Saviour (CG III, 5: 132, 11-12 and 134, 11-13); the Apocalypse of Paul (CG V, 2: 2o, 7-15. 21-22. 28-29); the First Apocalypse of James (CG V, 5:33, 1-25); the Second Apocalypse of James (CG V, 4: 46, 14-19; 57; 27-58, 4); the Second Treatise of the Great Seth (CG VII, 2: 57, 27-58, 4); and the apocryphal Letter of Peter to Philip (CG VIII, 2: 137, 6-9). 3)

Such a view, of course, differs radically from the Judaeo-Christian belief in "resurrection of the body," as such belief finds expression in passages like Daniel xii 2-4; Isa. xxvi 19; I Cor. xv; I Thess. iv; etc. Simon Magus' conviction, as reported in blah blah blah [Malcolm Peel Gnostic Eschatology and the New Testament in Essays on the Coptic Gnostic Library p. 152]
If the attestations for 'nakedness' of the soul being related to death is so widespread how can people argue that Morton Smith's alleged homosexuality is the best explanation of its presence in Mar Saba 65?
I can see that in some gnostic writings, the soul is described as naked when dead and separate from the body.

In Secret Mark, however, this concept is insufficient to explain what happens: the youth is supposedly is raised by Jesus and then puts on a robe and goes to see Jesus and then after 6 days they spend a night together and Jesus instructs him. And Clement objects to the Carpocratians saying "naked man with naked man".
At what point is Jesus naked with the youth in the Carpocratian version, and what is the reason for their mutual nakedness? It doesn't seem to make much sense theologically for them to both get naked, since eg. Jesus has already been baptized and is not yet at His Passion. We know that in early Christian practice, only the baptised one got naked, symbolizing his own death (separation from flesh). I would also ask what the youth is doing in the six days before he meets with Jesus while wearing a robe.

The critics make the argument for homosexuality by noting that elements like mutual love and mutual nakedness and meeting at night for the instruction after a lengthy time of non-instruction don't match what we know of the theology or the known rites, but could have an ulterior motive like homosexual acts.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:52 pm

EdwardM wrote:
Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:21 am
How can people argue that Morton Smith's alleged "homosexuality" (cough, cough) explain everything?

Simple. They are homophobic, Christ-psychosis infected imbeciles and they have to account for the finding of the epistle from Clement somehow. So like good dumbkopfs, I mean credentialed New Testament scholars (hahaha), they do what they usually do: they make stuff up.
One doesn't have to claim he was a homosexual to imagine a motive (like denigrating conservative Christianity) for his find (a secret gospel perhaps describing forbidden naked rituals). It would however make a better case for motive if he had more personal reasons to oppose conservative Christianity.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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Re: A New Explanation for 'Naked With Naked' in Secret Mark

Post by rakovsky » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:58 pm

Stuart wrote:
Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:49 pm
I think the passage 14:51-52 came into Mark from a marginal note occasioned by its relevance to (ἔφυγον πάντες) all the disciples fleeing upon Jesus' arrest, all leaving him.

That the young man (νεανίσκος) was clothed (περιβεβλημένος) in linen (σινδόνα) over his nakedness parallels the linen cloth (σινδόνι) placed on Jesus when he is entombed (Mark 15:46). When the two Mary's enter the tomb they see a young man (νεανίσκος) who is clothed (περιβεβλημένον) in a white robe (16:5). After the encounter the Gospel closes as the women flee (ἔφυγον) the tomb, seized with fear, just as Jesus was seized leading to the disciples to flee.

So the symbolism has to do with the resurrection. Revelation tells us some Christians believed the blood of Christ washed garments white as a result of its purity (Revelation 7:13-14, perhaps also the army in the heavens of Revelation 19:14). So what I ask myself is the symbolism of the loss of the garment, being naked? For that I turn to Paul (limiting myself to the Marcionite text), specifically 2 Corinthians 5:1-4 where we are speaking of being clothed in heavenly building a metaphor for the body. In verse 5:3 he says that putting on the heavenly building they will not be found naked. From this perspective, it seems the young man having fled Christ, losing his garment is now naked with his earthly body, having forsaken the heavenly. He now has the shame of facing his death naked (e.g., Revelation 3:18), having saved his life. The passage is thus an admonition not to betray Christ even when your life is in peril.

There is no sexuality involved in this. The vocabulary is consistent with the themes of the arrest, death, and resurrection, with the meaning of nakedness and clothing consistent with what we know in Paul of becoming a new man (e.g., 1 Corinthians 15:35-54, Galatians 6:15, 2 Corinthians 5:17, Ephesians 2:15, 4:24, etc.)
Worthwhile suggestions by you on the meaning, Stuart. I am curious if the youth at the tomb or Gethsemane is a specific individual identified in Christian tradition or in the gospels. I guess that Matthew and the other writers imply that this youth is a supernatural angel who came from heaven to comfort Jesus at Gethsemane and/or be at the tomb.

My research on the prophecies of the Messiah's resurrection: http://rakovskii.livejournal.com

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