The Shroud and Historicity

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Ulan » Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:54 pm

pavurcn wrote:
Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:44 pm
My original point was that IF the shroud is another witness to gospel events, then we have a new light on the historical weight of the texts, another factor to absorb and integrate into our interpretations. OF COURSE if you don't believe the shroud is an authentic witness you are not going to have that view.
The whole debate doesn't come close to even touching this question.

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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by iskander » Sat Nov 11, 2017 7:15 am

The Jewish reformer.

In the short ending of Mark there is no resurrection . There is no information about his birth either.

In chapter 6 we are told that he is the son of the carpenter (1) and Mary, and has brothers and sisters. His family is well known to the village and he is treated like the boy they all had known.

It is a dogma of the RCC that Mary was a perpetual virgin who never had any other children and never consummated her marriage to Joseph .

The early church made a man into a god, transformed his mother into a perpetual virgin, honoured his obscure birth with a divine father and his death was only a pause in a busy schedule.

Where could traces of the man be found? . In the ' miracle' of the shroud :thumbdown:

1) Mark: A Commentary (Hermeneia: A Critical & Historical Commentary on the Bible) Hardcover – 21 Dec 2007
by Adela Yarbro Collins (Author), Harold W. Attridge (Editor)
Fortress Press, U.S. (21 Dec. 2007
ISBN-13: 978-0800660789
In page 287-88, note d, The earliest surviving MS ( fragmentary)...Is this the son of the carpenter and Mary?

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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by pavurcn » Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:20 pm

PS: The most sober, well-reasoned assessment of pros and cons on the Shroud is here, with further excursuses here.

Not that I want to revive the argument here, only to point out (to those who are seriously interested) a full summative view of what things have been raised on both sides and carefully considered by a competent scholar of the issues.


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Secret Alias
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Secret Alias » Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:36 pm

More interesting than all this shroud nonsense is the identity of the poster pavurcn promoting such a ludicrous theory. Given that Steven Avery has resurfaced elsewhere today in this forum and Avery has a history of promoting the shroud ... al-forgery my guess is that Avery = pavurcn
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

Steven Avery
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Re: The Shroud and Historicity

Post by Steven Avery » Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:49 am

Your guess is wrong.

As I have one account on any forum I post, generally it is Steven Avery.

Thanks to linking to the Quodlibeta material, and thanks to the new poster for the critical assessment pages, and a fine OP.


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