Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-15

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iskander
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by iskander »

FransJVermeiren wrote:
iskander wrote:
But , once the Emperor of Rome is gone , what will the anonymous Christ put in his place ? What would replace the Emperor of Rome in the community of men and women?
Rome’s Jewish enemies, the Essenes, had to make an enveloping movement when propagating their own triumph and the utter defeat of the Romans. Even the Qumran Essenes did not mention the Romans by name, but called them the Kittim. But, writing in a foreign language in a distant area, they did not have to veil their information as much as Paul had to. I think the following passage of the War Scroll gives some insight in the purpose of the Essenes (1QM I:3-9):
[The king] of the Kittim [shall enter] into Egypt, and in his time he shall set out in great wrath to wage war against the kings of the north, that his fury may destroy and cut the horn of [Israel]. This shall be a time of salvation for the people of God, an age of dominion for all the members of His company, and of everlasting destruction for all the company of Belial. The confusion of the sons of Japheth shall be [great] and Assyria shall fall unsuccoured. The dominion of the Kittim shall come to an end and iniquity shall be vanquished, leaving no remnant; [for the sons] of darkness there shall be no escape. [The sons of righteous]ness shall shine over all the ends of the earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, joy and long life of all the sons of light.

I think it is quite obvious that the messianistic Essene Paul knew the messianistic Essene Qumran writings. If we compare the fragment above with Romans 8:18 for example, we can discern Paul’ source in the War Scroll quote above: I consider that the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. The ‘sufferings of the present time’ (with Rome dominating the world) have a parallel in 1QM’s ‘iniquity’ under Roman dominion. The bad present times are contrasted with a future time of glory in both writings (in the last sentence of the 1QM quote).
Also compare 'for the sons of darkness there shall be no escape' with 'their end will correspond to their deeds' in 1 Cor 11:15.

It might be clear that Paul only entrusted to paper carefully veiled messages that were understandable to the well-informed and not to the enemy. He could tell quite different things in the closed circle of his audience and the shrewd reader could make the connection.

I did not study the parallels between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Pauline letters in detail on this subject, but I believe that in general the Christ would take over world dominion from the Roman emperor, with a ‘pax Christi’ comparable to the pax Romana after the utter defeat of the latter, with the Jews (the Essenes) imposing their religion and moral prescriptions on all the inhabitants of the then known world, levying taxes to make them prosper instead of the Romans, accumulating the wealth of the world in Jerusalem instead of Rome, etcetera. Writing down such things would be suicidal under the totalitarian Roman regime.
Pax Essene
FransJVermeiren wrote:2. He is going to appear in the near future on the tremendous ‘day of the Lord’. The ‘second coming’ interpretation of the many future-oriented passages in Paul’s letters is groundless.
What happens on the tremendous day of the Lord? Is the anonymous Christ an Essene Emperor?
FransJVermeiren
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by FransJVermeiren »

iskander wrote: What happens on the tremendous day of the Lord? Is the anonymous Christ an Essene Emperor?
Just a brief reply.

The day of the Lord is the culminating day of transition between two periods: the abhorred Roman period of oppression and religious and moral decline under the emperor, and the Essene period of freedom and happiness (peace, blessing, glory, ...) under their God and his messiah (theocracy). The day of the Lord is preceded by the ‘last days’ (of the then period), with all kind of calamities and struggle (six battles between the Romans and the Essenes before the decisive one in favor of the Essenes, according to the War Scroll).
Revelation 11:15 concludes perfectly: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.
In other words: Roman imperial rule has changed into Essene theocratic rule, and this change is definitive.

Was the Christ foreseen to be an Essene emperor? Yes he was (but things turned out quite differently).
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
Michael BG
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by Michael BG »

FransJVermeiren wrote:I will treat chapter 11:1-15, which forms a textual unity.

If Paul was discussing two Christs, we might expect elements of an opposition between two Judeo-Christian factions, but there are no elements in this fragment that point in this direction.
Verses 22 and 23 should also be included:
[22] Are they Hebrews? So am I. Are they Israelites? So am I. Are they descendants of Abraham? So am I.
[23] Are they servants of Christ? I am a better one -- I am talking like a madman -- with far greater labors, far more imprisonments, with countless beatings, and often near death.(RSV)
So the author of 2 Corinthians is not silent on who these “great” apostles are; they are Hebrews; they are Israelites; they are descendants of Abraham. It would be logical to conclude that these “great” apostles emphasized their Jewishness.
FransJVermeiren wrote:The central opposition seems to be between Christ on one side and ‘another Jesus’ on the other.
Not another Christ but another Jesus. Is this Jesus also a Hebrew, an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham? It is possible.
FransJVermeiren wrote:In Sibylline Oracles V:29 it is used to depict the Roman emperor Nero.
35 Of the number three8. And then shall be a lord
Who shall for first initial have twice ten9.
And he shall come to Ocean's utmost water
And by Ausonia cleave the refluent tide.
And one whose mark is fifty10 shall be lord,

40 A dreadful serpent breathing grievous war,
Who sometime stretching forth his hands shall make
An end of his own race and stir all things,
Acting the athlete, driving chariots,
Putting to death and daring countless things;

45And he shall cleave the mountain of two seas11
And sprinkle it with gore; but out of sight
Shall also vanish the destructive man;
Then, making himself equal unto God,
Shall he return; but God will prove him naught.

50And after him shall three kings12 be destroyed
By one another.

Notes
8 Three – The letter C for Caius – Caligula
9 Twice ten – Claudius
10 Fifty – Nero
11 Isthmus of Corinth, which Nero attempted to open to the two adjoining bodies of water
12 Three kings – Galba, Otho and Vitellius

Trans. Milton S Terry http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/sib.pdf
John J Collins in The Apocalyptic Imagination dates the fifth Sibylline Oracle 1-51 as being written during the reign of Marcus Aurelius (161-180) if verse 51 is original (p 234). Like you he has different verse numbers to Terry.
(72)
After him three2 shall rule;

Note 2 72. Three --The three Antonines, namely, Antonius Pius, M. Aurelius, and I. Verus. This last named, being only seven years old at the time of his adoption, was thought by the Sibyl to be likely to come late to the throne.
Perhaps it means Lucius Verus emperor 160-69.
FransJVermeiren wrote:For Paul the Χριστος is a ruler, so he frequently calls him κυριος Χριστος. So maybe Paul opposes his Χριστος-who-is-the-κυριος with another κυριος. Who might this other κυριος be?
Where does Paul use Christ to mean a ruler rather than being a reference to Jesus Christ in some form?
iskander
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by iskander »

FransJVermeiren wrote:
iskander wrote: What happens on the tremendous day of the Lord? Is the anonymous Christ an Essene Emperor?
Just a brief reply.

The day of the Lord is the culminating day of transition between two periods: the abhorred Roman period of oppression and religious and moral decline under the emperor, and the Essene period of freedom and happiness (peace, blessing, glory, ...) under their God and his messiah (theocracy). The day of the Lord is preceded by the ‘last days’ (of the then period), with all kind of calamities and struggle (six battles between the Romans and the Essenes before the decisive one in favor of the Essenes, according to the War Scroll).
Revelation 11:15 concludes perfectly: The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign for ever and ever.
In other words: Roman imperial rule has changed into Essene theocratic rule, and this change is definitive.

Was the Christ foreseen to be an Essene emperor? Yes he was (but things turned out quite differently).
Thank you .
Yes, it is as in your story of the Essene Emperor in the Jewish dream ; the arrival and victory of the pre-existent King Messiah, the one who will bring the world under the dominion of the " one like a man". Christianity made death the enemy and resurrection the coronation of the king.

Romans 13 :1-7 says that the Kingdom of the Living and the Kingdom of the Dead are each one ruled by different masters; the living are ruled by themselves and the dead by the Christ.


I have no more questions, thank you for your explanation.
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by DCHindley »

FransJVermeiren wrote:
iskander wrote:... But , once the Emperor of Rome is gone , what will the anonymous Christ put in his place ? What would replace the Emperor of Rome in the community of men and women?
Rome’s Jewish enemies, the Essenes, had to make an enveloping movement when propagating their own triumph and the utter defeat of the Romans.

...

I did not study the parallels between the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Pauline letters in detail on this subject, but I believe that in general the Christ would take over world dominion from the Roman emperor, with a ‘pax Christi’ comparable to the pax Romana after the utter defeat of the latter, with the Jews (the Essenes) imposing their religion and moral prescriptions on all the inhabitants of the then known world, levying taxes to make them prosper instead of the Romans, accumulating the wealth of the world in Jerusalem instead of Rome, etcetera. Writing down such things would be suicidal under the totalitarian Roman regime.
You've got the Essenes playing the role of the modern ISIL, except they would consider it a world wide caliphate. Now I do think some people expected an anointed leader (calling this person "Christ" carries too many distinctly Christian ideas with it) who would either establish such a world empire by force (with God's help of course) or at least be an anointed sage who would preside over a world empire that God establishes through his angels.

I do not see any suggestion that the ruler(s) of that world wide kingdom of God would impose their religion on the conquered or tax them. You're thinking of Islam. There would still be, in that world kingdom imagined by some Jews, gentiles, but they would stop worshiping gods of wood & stone and pay allegiance to the Judean God, and this world-empire would rule the world justly.

Yet acknowledging that the Judean God is the supreme god is not the same as being taxed. This age, at least in Judea, would be incredibly fruitful, and in some POVs this might extend all over the world. In either case, the gentiles might send thanksgiving offerings to the Jerusalem temple of the supreme god, either to thank him for the abundance they receive or for his just rule.

DCH (hi ho hi ho it's off to work I go ...)
outhouse
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by outhouse »

Paul couldn’t attack the Roman emperor frontally in a world
dominated by Rome, so he uses an indirect way to do so. 'By the
serpent' would be a logical addition to this sentence.
You have something here, its been done in other NT text.
I did not study the parallels
The NT use many parallels to the Emperors divinity as "son of god"

These early proto Christians were proselytizing gentiles who the week before were worshipping the Emperor as "son of god" a corrupt politician. And now could worship the "son of god" who sacrificed himself for the good of the common man.
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by FransJVermeiren »

DCHindley wrote:
Yet acknowledging that the Judean God is the supreme god is not the same as being taxed. This age, at least in Judea, would be incredibly fruitful, and in some POVs this might extend all over the world. In either case, the gentiles might send thanksgiving offerings to the Jerusalem temple of the supreme god, either to thank him for the abundance they receive or for his just rule.
From the messianic 17th Psalm of Solomon (v. 30): And he will have gentile nations serving him under his yoke.

Could paying taxes be part of serving under the yoke of the messiah?
www.waroriginsofchristianity.com

The practical modes of concealment are limited only by the imaginative capacity of subordinates. James C. Scott, Domination and the Arts of Resistance.
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by DCHindley »

If the messianic kingdom was imagined to rule gentile peoples like the Roman empire did (i.e., by conquest) then yes they could require tribute from the subjected nations. Taxation is what taxation does, I suppose.

In the Roman empire, conquered nations usually surrendered conditionally, to retain some vestige of the old power structures. On these would be imposed the tribute, as a reminder to remaining power structures in those nations that Judea was now the boss.

If the destruction was carried to the point of destroying all power structures (they did not surrender, but were annihilated) then the area is usually incorporated into the empire as a province. Yes, provincials did pay some sort of taxes to the Romans, although this varied from province to province.

Client kingdoms would be a different matter, as they only rarely were required to pay tribute, and then only when they were "bad." They *were* expected to contribute troops for battles being fought by the nation exercising overall rule, or at least put up resistance to incursions by other nations not within the empire (that is, serve as buffer states).

Whether one expects the messianic age to be established by force, or by divine intervention that sweeps away any vestige of the old power structures, might make a difference as to whether gentile nations might be expected to pay tribute.

An empire brought about by conquest will have by definition un-conquered peoples to contend with, so clients kings acting as buffers (Armenia comes to mind for the Romans, and Adiabene for the Parthians) are still important. This, as we see from the example of the Roman empire, was not an especially stable system, as the remaining power structures will in time regain strength and revolt against their overlords.

An empire brought about by god which sweeps away all power structures in gentile regions throughout the inhabited world, and leaves only Judeans in charge by means of administrators who would rule justly, would not require tribute, but some sort of property or head tax might be imposed to offset the cost of the administration.

DCH
FransJVermeiren wrote:
DCHindley wrote:
Yet acknowledging that the Judean God is the supreme god is not the same as being taxed. This age, at least in Judea, would be incredibly fruitful, and in some POVs this might extend all over the world. In either case, the gentiles might send thanksgiving offerings to the Jerusalem temple of the supreme god, either to thank him for the abundance they receive or for his just rule.
From the messianic 17th Psalm of Solomon (v. 30): And he will have gentile nations serving him under his yoke.

Could paying taxes be part of serving under the yoke of the messiah?
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DCHindley
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Re: Paul's struggle against the imperial cult in 2Cor 11:1-1

Post by DCHindley »

Frans,

Keep in mind that inter-testamental literature expressed a wide variety of concepts of what an ideal messianic age would be like, and also a wide variety of ideas about how gentile nations would relate to it.

In some views, all gentiles are annihilated and utterly crushed by the inauguration of the messianic age.

In others the gentiles were considered "OK" as long as they renounced their idols and acknowledged the Judean God as supreme. They would remain in their regions, would not be required to convert to Judaism, but perhaps governed justly by Judean appointees. They would now be prosperous because the power structures (the elites, about 5% of the population) would have been removed and the people (farmers, artisans & merchants) would be better off.

Judea on the other hand would be super abundant in that age, and if gentiles wanted to participate in this superabundance I imagine they were expected to convert to Judaism completely by token of circumcision and Torah observance.

The permutations are endless.

DCH
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