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The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu May 18, 2017 12:54 pm

.
Welcome to Marcion's Evangelion :ugeek:

First round: Marcion and the Law of Moses :mrgreen:

Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 5.12-16, the healing of a leper.

12 Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν ἐν μιᾷ τῶν πόλεων καὶ ἰδοὺ ἀνὴρ πλήρης λέπρας· ἰδὼν δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν πεσὼν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐδεήθη αὐτοῦ λέγων, Κύριε, ἐὰν θέλῃς δύνασαί με καθαρίσαι. 13 καὶ ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα ἡψατο αὐτοῦ λέγων, Θέλω, καθαρίσθητι· καὶ εὐθέως ἡ λέπρα ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτοῦ. 14 καὶ αὐτὸς παρήγγειλεν αὐτῷ μηδενὶ εἰπεῖν, ἀλλὰ ἀπελθὼν δεῖξον σεαυτὸν τῷ ἱερεῖ, καὶ προσένεγκε τὸ δῶρον περὶ τοῦ καθαρισμοῦ σου καθὼς προσέταξεν Μωϋσῆς, εἰς μαρτύριον αὐτοῖς [Marcion: ἵνα ᾖ εἰς μαρτύριον τοῦτο ὑμῖν]. 15 διήρχετο δὲ μᾶλλον ὁ λόγος περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνήρχοντο ὀχλοι πολλοὶ ἀκούειν καὶ θεραπεύεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἀσθενειῶν αὐτῶν· 16 αὐτὸς δὲ ἦν ὑποχωρῶν ἐν ταῖς ἐρήμοις καὶ προσευχόμενος.12 While he was in one of the cities, behold, there was a man full of leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell on his face, and begged him, saying, “Lord, if you want to, you can make me clean.” 13 He stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, “I want to. Be made clean.” Immediately the leprosy left him. 14 He commanded him to tell no one, “But go your way, and show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift for your cleansing according to what Moses commanded, for a testimony to them [Marcion: so that this might be for a testimony to you].” 15 But the report concerning him spread much more, and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities. 16 But he withdrew himself into the desert, and prayed.

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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Secret Alias » Thu May 18, 2017 1:15 pm

לְפָנָיו לְעֵד = εἰς μαρτύριον αὐτοῖς https://books.google.com/books?id=MRHsC ... xx&f=false

The proper question is how strong is the evidence that εἰς μαρτύριον τοῦτο ὑμῖν is the Marcionite reading and not the reading of the gospel of the Adversus Marcionem reinterpreted by Epiphanius as a Marcionite reading?

This is the basis to the claim?
Accordingly He (Jesus) added: "that it may be for a testimony unto you"----one, no doubt, whereby He would testify that He was not destroying the law, but fulfilling it; whereby, too, He would testify that it was He Himself who was foretold as about to undertake265 their sicknesses and infirmities. This very consistent and becoming explanation of "the testimony," that adulator of his own Christ, Marcion seeks to exclude under the cover of mercy and gentleness.


Epiphanius screwed up here and demonstrates he's just cherrypicking things written by others against Marcion rather than actually citing from a Marcionite gospel. Tertullian thinks the 'testimony unto you' is the correct reading not Marcion. The perfect place to start our study of the bullshit that passes for 'Marcion gospel reconstruction.' Why should we believe here that Marcion's gospel is being cited? It's not. The text of Adversus Marcionem consistently cites from the author of the gospel not Marcion's gospel.

And a question for all those who want to go along with the notion that Tertullian has Marcion's gospel in front of him and is trying to 'demonstrate adulterations made by Marcion to the true text of the gospel.' Why the silence here right at the first kick at the can? It's like announcing to your friends at the bar 'I am going to hit on the hottest girl at the bar as soon as she walks through the door' and then a supermodel comes in and you say 'I've got to go to the bathroom ...'
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby davidbrainerd » Thu May 18, 2017 1:59 pm

Testimony unto "you" is less Marcionite than unto "them" so "you" is clearly only a typo in Tertullian's copy of Marcion's gospel.

Testimony unto "them": testimony to the priests that a new god is in town who can heal lepers, because the priests will know nobody has been cleansed and therefore nobody has come to make the offering for their cleansing their entire lifetime. Testimony to "them" that their god has been shown up by a Better God.

In fact, here, maybe "you" is not a typo, but Tertullian PURPOSEFULLY HIDING that Marcion's reading was the same as ours so we won't see how Marcionite the reading even in our orthodox copies is, and thus won't see the reading testimony unto "them" as evidence of Marcionite priority.
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Secret Alias » Thu May 18, 2017 2:00 pm

Sure :banghead:
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby davidbrainerd » Thu May 18, 2017 2:15 pm

Actually it could also very easily be a mistake in copying Tertullian's words. He doesn't attack Marcion as changing the wording. He just notes that he has Jesus tell the man to make the offering as a testimony, AM 3.9:

Accordingly He [Jesus] added: 'that it may be for a testimony unto you'----one, no doubt, whereby He would testify that He was not destroying the law, but fulfilling it;


No freaking about about Marcion changing the wording = "you" here is a mistake in copying Tertullian, since the standard reading "them" is clearly more Marcionite anyway.
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Secret Alias » Thu May 18, 2017 2:59 pm

The point - that I am making to the forum not to a particular individual - is that it is utterly incongruous to argue that after Tertullian says at the end of the preamble/introduction portion of Book Four i.e. the beginning of the discussion of the gospel section by section:

I now advance a step further, while I call to account, as I have promised, Marcion's gospel in his own version of it, with the design, even so, of proving it adulterated


and then accepts the reading 'testimony unto you':

Accordingly (Jesus) added: "that it may be for a testimony unto you"----one, no doubt, whereby He would testify that He was not destroying the law, but fulfilling it; whereby, too, He would testify that it was He Himself who was foretold as about to undertake265 their sicknesses and infirmities. This very consistent and becoming explanation of "the testimony," that adulator of his own Christ, Marcion seeks to exclude under the cover of mercy and gentleness. (Adv Marc 4.9.10)


It is also utterly incongruous to hold that Epiphanius's claim that he too will:
hasten to present the material from his (Marcion's) own Gospel which is contradictory to his villainous tampering, so that those who are willing to read the work may have this as a training-ground in acuity, for the refutation of the strange doctrines of his invention.


and then first on that list of falsifications is:

1. 'Go show thyself unto the priest, and offer for thy cleansing, according as Moses commanded—that this may be a testimony unto you,'34 instead of the Saviour's 'for a testimony unto them.'


Its not like this incongruity is 'hidden away' in the deep recesses of both texts. It's the first example of 'adulteration' that comes from Epiphanius's list and the first time Marcion is mentioned in conjunction with a textual reading from Luke (as opposed to that crazy 'cut stuff from Matthew business) in Adversus Marcionem as opposed to referencing something he said in the Antitheses which we have argued was the original angle of Justin's treatise. This should have been 'showtime' for the theory that you can reconstruct the gospel of Marcion from Tertullian and Epiphanius. It is nothing short of a fastball down the middle for that theory. The bat has to make contact with the ball.

If there were dozens of examples of 'a testimony unto you' it might be possible to argue that Epiphanius got the reading from somewhere other than Tertullian (or some other author down the chain of originality of Adversus Marcionem i.e. Irenaeus, Justin etc). But the plain simple fact that Tertullian cites the same reading and since dozens of modern scholars learn to read Tertullian in such a way as to agree with Epiphanius (i.e. the 'every synoptic gospel reading in Adv Marc is Marcionite' deception) shows how and where Epiphanius got the idea that 'testimony unto you' is a Marcionite reading - i.e. he was doing the same stupid thing that all those who would reconstruct the Marcionite gospel through Patristic reference did. Indeed he was their precursor because of the deception in chapters 2 - 6.

Epiphanius was fooled into thinking that "testimony unto you' is a Marcionite reading the same way everyone else has been (albeit working from Irenaeus's original Greek text not Tertullian's later Latin version). Irenaeus's lost treatise was one of the pillars behind the syntagma appended to the Panarion. Chapters 2 - 6 are there to deceive the reader into 're-interpreting' the Justin-treatise that follows 'as if' every synoptic gospel reference derives from Marcion's gospel. It is the very intent of the editor to trick the reader into a misunderstanding of the original material that follows. Justin cited the reading approvingly because it was in his gospel harmony. It's context is derived from Deuteronomy 31:19. There is no legal reason why the leper has to show himself to the priests. The point is that it is - as Justin intimates - proof that god has appeared to his people and proof that the people's turning away from him will be testimony against them (viz. the destruction of Jerusalem).

If Adversus Marcionem was really about proving that Marcion adulterated the gospel of Luke Tertullian would have hit that one out of the park - this the (alleged) first corruption of Epiphanius's equally dubious list of adulterations. But Adversus Marcionem accepts the reading and demonstrates that it is in harmony with the Law because that - rather than nonsense about Marcion adulterating Luke - was the original purpose and focus of the treatise Justin wrote.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri May 19, 2017 9:11 am

Secret Alias wrote:לְפָנָיו לְעֵד = εἰς μαρτύριον αὐτοῖς https://books.google.com/books?id=MRHsC ... xx&f=false

The proper question is how strong is the evidence that εἰς μαρτύριον τοῦτο ὑμῖν is the Marcionite reading and not the reading of the gospel of the Adversus Marcionem reinterpreted by Epiphanius as a Marcionite reading?

Agreed :D I would not go so far as Deppe, but I think that he gave a more or less accurate interpretation of GMark.
Therefore in Mark the prepositional phrase εἰς μαρτύριον αὐτοῖς should be translated with a dative of disadvantage, as “damning evidence against the priests if they establish that a healing has taken place and accept the cleansing sacrifice but do not recognize the person and power of the healer”.

But in Marcion’s well attested version the priest should give the usual testimony for the healed leper. :ugeek: Furthermore, Tertullian and Epiphanius were clearly embarassed (for other reasons than ours).
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri May 19, 2017 9:35 am

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GMarcion always reminds me of a story of the Argentine short-story writer Jorge Luis Borges (“Pierre Menard, Author of the Quixote").
Borges' "review" describes Menard's efforts to go beyond a mere "translation" of Don Quixote by immersing himself so thoroughly in the work as to be able to actually "re-create" it, line for line, in the original 17th-century Spanish. Thus, Pierre Menard is often used to raise questions and discussion about the nature of authorship, appropriation, and interpretation.


At the end of the story Borges wrote
Menard (perhaps without wanting to) has enriched, by means of a new technique, the halting and rudimentary art of reading: this new technique is that of the deliberate anachronism and the erroneous attribution. This technique, whose applications are infinite, prompts us to go through the Odyssey as if it were posterior to the Aeneid and ... This technique fills the most placid works with adventure. To attribute the Imitatio Christi to Louis Ferdinand Céline or to James Joyce, is this not a sufficient renovation of its tenuous spiritual indications?


I would claim it is a similar situation with GLuke and GMarcion. The little agreements with GMatthew and GMark may be very interesting, but overall GMarcion’s brother is GLuke.

Luke, the probably most pious Evangelist, and Marcion, the so called Arch Heretic, share large parts of the same text. :cheers:
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby Secret Alias » Fri May 19, 2017 10:33 am

But I don't think I am being understood again (or perhaps this post is suffering from my unwarranted assumption that I can understand all that someone has wrote in a nanosecond of attention). Tertullian is clearly not citing Marcion. He's citing his own gospel. Epiphanius confuses the matter because he's a careless idiot (see here http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2017/ ... nders.html). But this notion that Tertullian after saying "I am going to expose and condemn Marcion's adulterations" brings forward a textual variant approvingly denies the possibility that this is a Marcionite variation. It is a variation that the author had in his own canon. This does however make manifest how Epiphanius assembled his pamphlet - not from an actual Marcionite canon in front of him but - as always in the Panarion - by lifting things written by others and not crediting (even hiding) the source.
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Re: The Arch-Heretic’s brave and pious Gospel

Postby JoeWallack » Fri May 19, 2017 11:06 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
Welcome to Marcion's Evangelion :ugeek:

First round: Marcion and the Law of Moses :mrgreen:

Ben C. Smith wrote:Luke 5.12-16, the healing of a leper.

12 Καὶ ἐγένετο ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτὸν ἐν μιᾷ τῶν πόλεων καὶ ἰδοὺ ἀνὴρ πλήρης λέπρας· ἰδὼν δὲ τὸν Ἰησοῦν πεσὼν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον ἐδεήθη αὐτοῦ λέγων, Κύριε, ἐὰν θέλῃς δύνασαί με καθαρίσαι. 13 καὶ ἐκτείνας τὴν χεῖρα ἡψατο αὐτοῦ λέγων, Θέλω, καθαρίσθητι· καὶ εὐθέως ἡ λέπρα ἀπῆλθεν ἀπ' αὐτοῦ. 14 καὶ αὐτὸς παρήγγειλεν αὐτῷ μηδενὶ εἰπεῖν, ἀλλὰ ἀπελθὼν δεῖξον σεαυτὸν τῷ ἱερεῖ, καὶ προσένεγκε τὸ δῶρον περὶ τοῦ καθαρισμοῦ σου καθὼς προσέταξεν Μωϋσῆς, εἰς μαρτύριον αὐτοῖς [Marcion: ἵνα ᾖ εἰς μαρτύριον τοῦτο ὑμῖν]. 15 διήρχετο δὲ μᾶλλον ὁ λόγος περὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ συνήρχοντο ὀχλοι πολλοὶ ἀκούειν καὶ θεραπεύεσθαι ἀπὸ τῶν ἀσθενειῶν αὐτῶν· 16 αὐτὸς δὲ ἦν ὑποχωρῶν ἐν ταῖς ἐρήμοις καὶ προσευχόμενος.12 While he was in one of the cities, behold, there was a man full of leprosy. When he saw Jesus, he fell on his face, and begged him, saying, “Lord, if you want to, you can make me clean.” 13 He stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, “I want to. Be made clean.” Immediately the leprosy left him. 14 He commanded him to tell no one, “But go your way, and show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift for your cleansing according to what Moses commanded, for a testimony to them [Marcion: so that this might be for a testimony to you].” 15 But the report concerning him spread much more, and great multitudes came together to hear, and to be healed by him of their infirmities. 16 But he withdrew himself into the desert, and prayed.



Judas Priest

JW:
I have faith that this forms a Chithemism with "Priest" similar to "Mark's" use of "Herod" I'm Looking For A Herod

1

44 and saith unto him, See thou say nothing to any man: but go show thyself to the priest, and offer for thy cleansing the things which Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.
45 But he went out, and began to publish it much, and to spread abroad the matter, insomuch that Jesus could no more openly enter into a city, but was without in desert places: and they came to him from every quarter.


Verses:

15

31 In like manner also the chief priests mocking [him] among themselves with the scribes said, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
32 Let the Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reproached him.


Once again the evidence for Chithemism is remarkable between the first and last invocation of the author's use of "Priest":

    1) Showing yourself to the Priests.

    2) Offer to cleanse.

    3) Testimony to the Priests.

    4) Told not to tell.

    5) Goes to places unknown.

The story in Chapter 1 seems out of place (so to speak) with the Teaching & Healing Ministry. The reason for it is to foreshadow, contrast and connect with the [irony]last use of a Priest[/irony]. The point here is regarding who was more likely to have original "Luke", which candidate, Marcion Luke or orthodox Luke, has better preserved the larger picture of the original author, the stories in Chapter 1 and Chapter 15.


Joseph

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