1 Corinthians 15:8-9

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Bernard Muller
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Re: 1 Corinthians 15:8-9

Post by Bernard Muller »

1 Corinthians 15:8 - "one untimely born"? -- interesting.
I would interpret that as (allegedly) Paul saying he was born too late to be a witness of Jesus on earth or, more likely, to be among the first apostles (Paul acknowledged they were apostles before him).
Of course, for me, I consider 1 Cor 15:8 as part of an interpolation (15:3-11).

Cordially, Bernard
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DCHindley
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Re: 1 Corinthians 15:8-9

Post by DCHindley »

Solo wrote:Incidentally, is anyone else out there who thinks the 'ektromati' ('miscarried', or 'aborted') Paul in verse 8 is a hostile retort to Paul's boasting he was selected by God 'ek koilias mhtros mou' - 'from my mother's womb' (Gal 1:15) to be an apostle ?
But the text as transmitted to modern times does not present it as a hostile retort by Paul's enemies.

I think that it is more likely that Paul, a kind of religious purist who wanted to keep his traditions free of Hellenic taint, but facing a lot of opposition from those who wanted to "normalize" relations between Judeans and Gentiles. Then, one day, he realized that what he wanted to do was ultimately unattainable. He began to feel he was a failure, yes, even an "abortion".

This was just before his vision, of course, but in that vision, when it came, he was overwhelmed with the feeling that God, even when he was in his mother's womb, had chosen him for a special purpose, to propose a solution that everyone could assent to. Maybe he was to come to full term with his mission after all!

He realized that God had justified Abram on account of his faith that God would fulfill his promise that Abram's "seed" would one day inhabit a land of milk and honey. Until then he had assumed that God had meant physical descendants by the word "seed" (sg).

But he thought an impossible thought: "What if using the singular form of the word "seed" to mean something else than physical descendants. He had noticed that Abram had been justified before God by his faith in that promise, well before he finally had himself and his household circumcised in token of his acceptance of the covenant of the divine Promise. He saw an "out" to his problem of what to do with gentiles who wished to participate in such a promise land.

They too could participate, because they have the same faith as Abram that God would one day accomplish it. It was a technicality, sure, but if it can be acknowledged as a workable solution, then "What can stop us from bridging the chasm between our very different cultures?"

:popcorn:

DCH
robert j
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Re: 1 Corinthians 15:8-9

Post by robert j »

1 Corinthians 15:8 - "one untimely born"? -- interesting.
The translation as “one untimely born” is not a wrong translation, per se, but IMO, it does not represent what Paul was saying here.

Paul referred to himself as “the ektroma” (τῷ ἐκτρώματι), with “the” (τῷ), IMO, intended as the not-at-all unusual direct article --- an individualizing article –-- meaning a very specific ektroma.

And the specific ektroma Paul was referring to --- true to his style of drawing on the Jewish scriptures --- was the ektroma in Numbers 12. Paul stated why he self-identified with the ektroma ---
And last of all, as the ektroma he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, who am not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the assembly of God. (1 Cor 15:8-9)
Paul saw himself as the ektroma because he was ignorant and sinned when he persecuted the assembly of god --- just as Miriam in Numbers 12 was associated with an ektroma because she was ignorant and sinned when she spoke against Moses.

The Corinthians would understand the connection because Paul had told them about this before and was just reminding them here (1 Cor 15:1-3).

Philo also associated one “bringing forth evil things” with the ektroma in chapter 12 of Numbers. (Allegorical Interpretation I, XXIV (76)

I have elaborated upon Paul's connection with Numbers 12, in the context of 1 Cor 15:8-9 and the letter to the Galatians, in this opening post ---
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=711
Last edited by robert j on Tue May 03, 2016 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
iskander
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Re: 1 Corinthians 15:8-9

Post by iskander »

Solo wrote:The two verses clash violently with Paul's view of himself vis-à-vis other apostles elsewhere in the corpus, eg 1 Cor 9, 2 Cor 11 and 12, Galatians ch 1, ch 5. This surely comes from the later church which traded "penitent" Paul, brought to heel by Jesus and straightened out by the churchmen.

Incidentally, is anyone else out there who thinks the 'ektromati' ('miscarried', or 'aborted') Paul in verse 8 is a hostile retort to Paul's boasting he was selected by God 'ek koilias mhtros mou' - 'from my mother's womb' (Gal 1:15) to be an apostle ?

Best,
Jiri
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=711&start=10#p14471
beowulf wrote:Miscarriage is a more accurate translation than abortion: And last of all, just as if to a miscarriage he appeared also to me.


Paul is saying in 1 Cor 15.8 that he was as one of the dead in Luke 9.60: that is what he learned from Jesus on the road to Damascus' .

Luke 9.60 let the dead bury the dead
But Jesus* ( he) said to him, ‘Let the dead bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.

No , it is not a hostile retort. The word ectroma is used here to signify that Paul was " occupied in the labour of bringing forth evil things." -- but he had been elected by God "from his mother's womb " to be an apostle .
As in Philo :
ALLEGORICAL INTERPRETATION
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/yonge/book2.html
XXIV (76) But, though always in labour, it never brings forth. For the soul of the worthless man is not calculated by nature to bring any thing to perfection which is likely to live. But every thing which it appears to bring forth is found to be abortive and immature. "Eating up the half of its flesh, and being like a death of the Soul."{15}{#nu 12:12.} On which account that holy word Aaron entreats the pious Moses, who was beloved by God, to heal the leprosy of Miriam, in order that her soul might not be occupied in the labour of bringing forth evil things. And in consequence he says: "Let her not become like unto death, as an abortion proceeding out of the womb of her mother, and let her not devour the half of her own Flesh."{16}{#nu 12:13.}
andrewcriddle
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Re: 1 Corinthians 15:8-9

Post by andrewcriddle »

TedM wrote:
andrewcriddle wrote:I don't think Paul is contradicting himself.

Paul believes that in and of himself he is worthless but by the grace of God given to the undeserving he is at least the equal of any of the other apostles.

Andrew Criddle
While I see that, it still leaves me wondering how to interpret "For I am the least of the apostles" as he seems to be comparing himself to them. Do you think he really meant "For I am the least deserving of the apostles" (since he persecuted) or something else?
I would understand it as I am (according to intrinsic merit) the least of the Apostles

Andrew Criddle
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