Bernard Muller's 'case'

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:
I guess I'm hoping for something more. We need the historicity case to be made as strongly as it can, hopefully someday soon.
It really hurts. I wonder if I exist. I wonder if my all encompassing website on the matter is visible.
What's wrong with my case? I have the feeling my work is an elephant in the room.
http://historical-jesus.info/
http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard;

1. Your webpages are very hard to read and the information therein is very hard to digest.

2. You seem to take the bible as true history (without accounting for the theology and the supernatural that elevated it to its popularity).

3. Taking the bible as true history begs the question: Why is there no valid supporting evidence?
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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MrMacSon
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Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:
I guess I'm hoping for something more. We need the historicity case to be made as strongly as it can, hopefully someday soon.
It really hurts. I wonder if I exist. I wonder if my all encompassing website on the matter is visible.
What's wrong with my case? I have the feeling my work is an elephant in the room.
http://historical-jesus.info/
http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard;
  • 1. Your webpages are very hard to read and the information therein is very hard to digest.

    2. You seem to take the bible as true history (without accounting for the theology and the supernatural that elevated it to its popularity).

    3. Taking the bible as true history begs the question: Why is there no valid supporting evidence?

Bernard asks rhetorical questions here
Could Jesus have existed as just a lowly Jew, but through circumstances leading to (& about) his execution, triggered the later development, by others, of a (religious) movement and cultic beliefs?

But do we have evidence for this minimal Jesus and (despite his low status) about how he unwittingly initiated Christianity?
As a matter of fact we do, in a surprisingly large quantity, and many of them are found in the gospels (some others in Paul's epistles, as shown later). But then, can the gospels, criticized as unreliable, be used in the quest of the real Jesus?
  • "the writing of each Gospel reflects the experiences and circumstances of early Christians. They do not all tell the same story of Jesus because each one is responding to a different audience and circumstances." (PBS frontline 'From Jesus to Christ')
Despite their flaws, discrepancies, unhistorical items, suspected embellishments/fiction and overall purpose of bolstering faith, these writings (and some others in the N.T.) have "down to earth" and "against the grain" bits & pieces, which make a lot of sense on a human, social, cultural & historical standpoint. But how can we be sure of their truthfulness? Could these items be outright inventions?

http://historical-jesus.info/
The comments are spurious. This is particularly simplistic and disingenuous, 'positive' poisoning-the-well fallacy (ie. setting the stage in your favor) -
But do we have evidence for this minimal Jesus and (despite his low status) about how he unwittingly initiated Christianity?
As a matter of fact we do, in a surprisingly large quantity, and many of them are found in the gospels (some others in Paul's epistles, as shown later)
See belowx where I highlight where Bernard contradictions his "surprisingly large quantities" bare-assertion fallacy.

To say/quote ...
... the writing of each Gospel reflects the experiences and circumstances of early Christians ...
... highlights a common, questionable assertion about the gospels reflecting direct 'experiences'.

What early-Christians believed is never put in context of when? The implication is that what some poorly-chronicled Christians believed reflects early 1st C Christians ... this is disingenuous; especially as the theology was evolving over those 1st 1-3 Cs AD/CE.

The next section -
But if it is the case:
- Why give Jesus four brothers and at least two sisters (Mk6:3), rather than emphasize his uniqueness?
- Why base him among the uneducated villagers of Capernaum, his new home (Mt4:13), a poor town in Galilee?
- Why bother to have him get a "mother-in-law" (Mk1:30) out of bed?
- etc
is fallacious 'argument-from-ignorance' and 'argument-from-incredulity'

Later you make a few leaps-of-faith -
When eyewitnesses were still alive, Paul wrote about a minimal Jesus ....
(immediately* you further appeal to Pauline narratives, including dubious familial relationships) ...
  • <snip>
And the same picture can also be seen at the bottom of the earliest gospels, especially the first one, Mark's.

The early Christians did not seem to consider the earthly Jesus as (theologically) sacred:
  • "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man [Jesus] will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven" (Mt12:32a)
You then say, with quite a lot of contradiciton -
His historic presence appears to have been rather minimal:
  • "but made himself [Jesus] of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant" (Paul in Php2:7)
Very little external evidence about him is available.

But then, according to Paul:
  • "... we speak not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, communicating spiritual [things] by spiritual [means]." (1Co2:13 Darby)
    "we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden ..." (1Co2:7)
x You acknowledge
  • His historic presence appears to have been rather minimal:
  • Very little external evidence about him is available.
but then appeal to supernatural theology!!!!

All of Bernard's approaches involve fallacies, or spurious 'discussions' involving contradictions.

*
  • (but also, for Paul, pre/post-existent as a heavenly deity) who, from "Israelites, ... whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ..." (Ro9:4-5 YLT) and "come of a woman, come under law" (Gal4:4 YLT) (as a descendant of (allegedly) Abraham (Gal3:16), Jesse (Ro15:12) & David (Ro1:3)), "found in appearance as a man" (Php2:8) "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Ro8:3), "the one man, Jesus Christ" (Ro5:15) (who had brothers (1Co9:5), one of them called "James", whom Paul met (Gal1:19)), "humbled himself" (Php2:8) in "poverty" (2Co8:9) as "servant of the Jews" (Ro15:8) and, after "the night in which he was delivered up" (1Co11:23 Darby), "was crucified in weakness" (2Co13:4) in "Zion" (Ro9:31-33 & Ro11:26-27).
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MrMacSon
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by MrMacSon »

I trust the quotes (mostly from first century authors) and data used here to be truthful
It would be appropriate to discuss
  • whether these really are 1st C authors;
  • whether they are reliable; and
  • what corroborates those works
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

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This blog is dedicated exclusively to the historical Jesus (more so an ultra minimalist one)

http://historical-jesus.info/blog.html
"more so an ultra minimalist one"??
Bernard Muller
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Re: Did Jesus Die in Outer Space?

Post by Bernard Muller »

1. Your webpages are very hard to read and the information therein is very hard to digest.
I don't think they are very hard to read or digest. They are concise and densely packed, I have to admit.
These webpages are the product of a long study and incorporate not only the conclusions but the supporting evidence & argumentation for each one of them. They are not meant for easy reading but to expose my research. It takes time to assimilate.
I do not think issues on the matter will be solved by just debates on forum like this one. Long research and getting deep into each elements are absolutely necessary.
If you want to know my overall conclusions in a very short and easy reading form, click here:
http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html and here http://historical-jesus.info/t58.html
2. You seem to take the bible as true history (without accounting for the theology and the supernatural that elevated it to its popularity).
I don't know what you mean by that. Actually, I take very little as true history from the bible. And if I do it for bits & pieces, I try to justify their authenticity.

This is how I defined my methodology:
a) Stay always within the historical, social, cultural & religious (ancient) contexts, when studying each event & writing.
b) Acknowledge that people in the 1st/2nd century (most of them illiterate) had some common sense (& religious aspirations) and were living mostly in a secular, "low-tech" (& unscholarly!) world: they thought in real time (their own day to day present).
c) Consider the (early) Christian texts as written by "flesh & blood "persons (and not necessarily scholars!) likely to have human motives (sometimes very obvious), and as addressed to contemporaries. Then research the circumstances surrounding their compositions.
d) Have an all-encompassing view: everything of any pertinence has to be investigated, from all primary sources available, more so the closest (in time) to the facts.
e) Determine with accuracy (and great efforts!) the sequence of events, timing and the dating of writings (that's lacking into many scholarly works), because that provides another dimension, the most crucial one: many (preceding & following) points are considerably affected by the dating & sequencing.
f) Do not charge with some theory/concept (yours or borrowed) because it suits you (unfortunately, agenda-driven works are prevalent nowadays).
g) Sort out the evidence and check it in depth (accuracy, validity, context, correct translation, etc., for each bits), by way of critical analysis. Justify any rejection with good reasons, preferably many of them.
h) Do not ignore "down to earth", obvious, mundane or trivial details (usually considered unworthy of scholarly interest). Do not overlook contradictions and oddities (as you would for the work of a subordinate, as a detective would for a suspect, as a legal officer would for an eyewitness!). Pay attention to "against the grain" and embarrassing bits (they might be telling!).
i) Follow the evidence, stay close to it, allow it to "discipline" & direct you: avoid free intellectual extrapolations & speculations (we have enough of those!).
j) Practice reality checks along the way: avoid absurdities.
k) Stay on the right track, on solid ground; do not hesitate to turn back when a trail is disappearing; explore all options, but remember, only one can be correct (& not necessarily the first one which pops out from the top of your head!).
l) Accept what you discover, rather than decide first what to find & reject.
m) Be scrupulous: "fudging" & "ignoring" NOT allowed (why should I fool myself & my readers? And this website will not advance my career or make money for me!).
n) Reject ill-substantiated assumptions, even if they are widely "swallowed" (beware of "studies" which accept them, either unannounced ("transparent") or with a short introduction!).
o) Look somewhere else if you need long discussions to justify your position.
p) Provide (concisely & accurately) the whole evidence & argumentation for each step (to keep you honest and prevent unproven claims to creep in): each piece of the puzzle must stand on its own.
q) Go back over all the preceding points because later findings are bound to have implications on previous understandings (and vice versa. I never said it was an "auto-pilot" one-way process. Beware of simplistic methodologies!). Examine back everything, including the options you chose along the way (everything has to fit, but keep observing all the points!). Do it over & over, again & again ...

This is what I tried to abide by, but if any one of my readers objects on these points or thinks I do not adhere to them (or missed some other ones), please let me know (but be specific!). Contact me here.

And if, (despite) complying with all the aforementioned, overall & throughout COHERENCE of the reconstruction is achieved, then you succeeded.
If not, well, either it cannot be done (according to the available evidence) OR you went wrong someplace!

Furthermore, this kind of study should not be a vehicle for (or driven by) anti-Christian or pro-Christian propaganda (or bias)! Also, it should not be influenced by any author's peculiar fixation(s), source of income or/and "market" consideration. And beware of those works which use the "historical Jesus" in order to showcase a scholar/professor's field of expertise, such as old-fashioned theology, in low demand otherwise.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Bernard Muller
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by Bernard Muller »

The comments are spurious. This is particularly simplistic and disingenuous, 'positive' poisoning-the-well fallacy (ie. setting the stage in your favor) -
That's your opinion. Where is the supporting evidence for it? Are you sure you use the word "spurious" correctly? The so-called stage setting will be fully explained later in my webpages and part of the research. It's not something I use in my intro page and then abandon.
... highlights a common, questionable assertion about the gospels reflecting direct 'experiences'.
Where did you read "direct" in my quote? Experiences are about what the Christian communities for whom the gospels were written went through at the time and before.
What early-Christians believed is never put in context of when?[/quotee]
I take care of that in my webpages.
is fallacious 'argument-from-ignorance' and 'argument-from-incredulity'
big words. What direct evidence do you have against what I proposed?
Later you make a few leaps-of-faith -
What leap of faith? It's all evidenced later in my webpages and more recently on my blog (104 blog posts).
You acknowledge
His historic presence appears to have been rather minimal:
Very little external evidence about him is available.
but then appeal to supernatural theology!!!!
Yes, supernatural theology explains why a very minimal Jesus became believed as a god decades after his death.
So what's the problem? And of course, I do not agree that supernatural theology was warranted and true, but it happened as put on a very modest figure.
See http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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MrMacSon
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote:
1. Your webpages are very hard to read and the information therein is very hard to digest.
I don't think they are very hard to read or digest. They are concise and densely packed, I have to admit.
These webpages are the product of a long study and incorporate not only the conclusions but the supporting evidence & argumentation for each one of them. They are not meant for easy reading but to expose my research. It takes time to assimilate.
I do not think issues on the matter will be solved by just debates on forum like this one. Long research and getting deep into each elements are absolutely necessary.
If you want to know my overall conclusions in a very short and easy reading form, click here:
http://historical-jesus.info/digest.html and here http://historical-jesus.info/t58.html
2. You seem to take the bible as true history (without accounting for the theology and the supernatural that elevated it to its popularity).
I don't know what you mean by that. Actually, I take very little as true history from the bible. And if I do it for bits & pieces, I try to justify their authenticity.

This is how I defined my methodology:
a) Stay always within the historical, social, cultural & religious (ancient) contexts, when studying each event & writing.
b) Acknowledge that people in the 1st/2nd century (most of them illiterate) had some common sense (& religious aspirations) and were living mostly in a secular, "low-tech" (& unscholarly!) world: they thought in real time (their own day to day present).
c) Consider the (early) Christian texts as written by "flesh & blood "persons (and not necessarily scholars!) likely to have human motives (sometimes very obvious), and as addressed to contemporaries. Then research the circumstances surrounding their compositions.
It is highly dubious they "were living mostly in a secular ... (& unscholarly!) world". While many were not theologically scholarly, the theologies of the time would have had a 'scholarly' component to them: "within the historical, social, cultural & religious (ancient) contexts you admit in the preceding point!!!!


e) Determine with accuracy (and great efforts!) the sequence of events, timing and the dating of writings (that's lacking into many scholarly works), because that provides another dimension, the most crucial one: many (preceding & following) points are considerably affected by the dating & sequencing.

g) Sort out the evidence and check it in depth (accuracy, validity, context, correct translation, etc., for each bits), by way of critical analysis. Justify any rejection with good reasons, preferably many of them.
You show no evidence of doing this; likely b/c they is no way of determining a/ the timing, dating & true sequence of writings (which is why it is lacking in scholarly works!)

You show no evidence of showing accuracy or validity.
h) Do not ignore "down to earth", obvious, mundane or trivial details (usually considered unworthy of scholarly interest). Do not overlook contradictions and oddities (as you would for the work of a subordinate, as a detective would for a suspect, as a legal officer would for an eyewitness!). Pay attention to "against the grain" and embarrassing bits (they might be telling!)

i) Follow the evidence, stay close to it, allow it to "discipline" & direct you: avoid free intellectual extrapolations & speculations (we have enough of those!).
This is assertion and special-pleading for some special hidden "methodology"

This -
k) Stay on the right track, on solid ground; do not hesitate to turn back when a trail is disappearing; explore all options, but remember, only one can be correct (& not necessarily the first one which pops out from the top of your head!).
- is gobble-de-gook.
Bernard Muller
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by Bernard Muller »

It would be appropriate to discuss
whether these really are 1st C authors;
whether they are reliable; and
what corroborates those works
That's all explained starting here: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html and then follow the links.
Sorry, the dating cannot be explained in a few lines, neither what is reliable in the gospels (very little), neither what is the corroborating evidence.
"more so an ultra minimalist one"??
Yes, that's as compared with other renditions of minimal Jesus, which are not so because they still have him as charismatic and talented for whatever.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
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MrMacSon
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: Yes, supernatural theology explains why a very minimal Jesus became believed as a god decades after his death.
No it doesn't. One needs to explain the well-regarded hypothesis/theory that Jesus was a literary flesh-man added to the preceding saviour-spiritual- gnostic-Christ stories that existed in the changing milieu of theologies of the times.

Bernard Muller wrote: See http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html
That is too hard to fathom.
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Re: Bernard Muller's 'case'

Post by MrMacSon »

Bernard Muller wrote: That's all explained starting here: http://historical-jesus.info/gospels.html and then follow the links.
No!!!! .... and No!!, I will not follow your 'treasure-hunt' of links!!

Bernard Muller wrote:Sorry, the dating cannot be explained in a few lines, neither what is reliable in the gospels (very little), neither what is the corroborating evidence.
So, there is no reliable dating ...

Bernard Muller wrote:
"more so an ultra minimalist one"??
Yes, that's as compared with other renditions of minimal Jesus, which are not so because they still have him as charismatic and talented for whatever.
" .. other renditions of 'minimal Jesus' .."?? -- You undermine yourself, Bernard, by "trying to have your cake and eat it too".
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