Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2334
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by GakuseiDon »

Carrier spends about 26 pages in OHJ discussing Acts and how it contributes to minimum historicity/minimum mythicist theories:

Quotes from pages 374-375 of OHJ in the 3 page subsection called "The Mysterious Vanishing Acts", where he discusses Luke's mention (or lack of mention) of Jesus' family in Acts. I've bolded comments where he gives his evalution percentages for this subsection:
  • I must conclude that the history of the early church as recounted in Acts looks very much unlike what we would expect on minimal historicity. Con­tortions are required to get what we have to fit (such as assuming ad hoc that in fact Jesus had no family, or that strange motives were available to erase them from history completely, motives that would not sooner moti­vate a rewrite of what they said and did or what happened to them). Even the point about there being no missing body (the narrative simply makes no sense on the supposition that there was one; but makes perfect sense on the supposition that there wasn't, which agrees with there being no Jesus to bury) and the disappearance of Pilate (as if he would be wholly uncon­cerned that a man he executed was reported to have escaped) are exactly what we expect on minimal mythicism, but not exactly what we expect on minimal historicity. But there at least we can retreat to combining minimal historicity with an early resurrection doctrine that did not require a missing body. Though I think that is much less ad hoc (since a strong, independent case can be made that that isll probably in fact what the original Christian resurrection doctrine was), it is not 100% guaranteed.

    Or we can retreat to supposing Acts is almost complete fiction, and thus all of its strange omissions are just the result of Luke being an insufficiently imaginative writer. On that theory, having inherited no material about the early church other than perhaps the letters of Paul, Luke had no knowledge of Jesus' family, and so didn't think to include them in his tale. Likewise everything else that makes no historical sense. This entails a dilemma: one must either reject Acts entirely as evidence (being so wholly fabricated that it cannot be trusted as reliably attesting to anything), or one must accept that its omissions are improbable on minimal historicity but exactly to be expected on minimal myth. This does not mean impossible, just improb­able. So we must assign some probability less than 100%. This is true even if Luke is wholly fabricating, since even then it is not 100% likely he would forget these things. Those omissions are unlikely even in fiction, requiring an explanation, which requires a supposition not in evidence, which lowers the probabiIity of any explanation we muster.

    My most generous estimate would be a 4 in 5 chance (roughly an 80% chance) that Luke would write Acts 2-28 as we have it, if he used or was aware of any kind of genuine sources for the early history of Christianity. Which is the same as saying there is only a 20% chance he would have included material about the brothers of Jesus or any of the other missing people in his life (and thus an 80% chance he wouldn't). Yet I think an 80% chance Luke would completely omit Jesus' family from the whole public history of the church, as well as other things we should otherwise expect to be there, is being absurdly generous. My more realistic estimate of this probability would be 2 in 5 (or a 40% chance he'd leave all this stuff out; hence a 60% chance that he would have said something about these missing people and events). If, however, Luke neither used nor knew any real stories or sources, but just made it all up (or adapted sources that did), and given that he himself was clearly a historicist (or certainly was selling that dogma with these books, whatever he personally may have believed), then there is no longer any logical connection between these bizarre omissions and any actual absences in the history of the church. But even then these omissions would not have 1 to 1 odds. as if they were equally mysterious on h or ~h, because they would stil l be at least a little weird, requiring a supposition (not in evidence) that Luke was not a sufficiently imaginative writer to real­ize what he was leaving out.

    I think it's improbable that Luke had no lore to work from, no infor­mation about the earliest missions or the family of Jesus. Regardless of whether he used any of it or not, it's surely more likely that at least a basic outline of what happened was known to him. I think there had to be by his time tales about the role and fate of Jesus' family (especially Mary and James, or even Jude), if such people existed; and likewise what happened in Jerusalem the first time it was announced that an executed convict had risen from the dead. So was Luke writing in total ignorance or from a start­ing point of at least some knowledge? I'll assume the latter (on what to do if you disagree, see §7).
For Carrier's percentage for Acts overall, he writes on page 386 (my bolding below):
  • ... nothing in Acts is unexpected on minimal mythicism, as on that account anything historicizing in it is a mythical invention of Luke's (and we've proved Luke was doing that a lot), while the omissions and van­ishing acts would be the inevitable result of there being no historical Jesus. So the same consequent probabilities on ~h can be treated as all 100% across the board. That leaves the probability of Acts looking this way on h equal to 72% at best, and 20% at worst. The content of Acts is therefore evidence against the historicity of Jesus.
If I understand Carrier correctly in the above statement (someone please correct me if I am wrong), he is saying that Acts is 100% what is expected on the minimum mythicist theory, but only 20% (worst case) to 72% (best case) on the minimum historicity theory.
It is really important, in life, to concentrate our minds on our enthusiasms, not on our dislikes. -- Roger Pearse
stevencarrwork
Posts: 225
Joined: Sat Jan 11, 2014 5:57 am

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by stevencarrwork »

AVERY
(If any skeptic is capable of that dialog, without relying on theories of NT error as a presupposition.)

CARR
Well, we can pretty much presuppose that any book has errors in it. That is not controversial except among people who claim that some books are special.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2842
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by Leucius Charinus »

Thanks for the OP lpetrich. Great summary!!!

Ulan wrote:
Peter Pilhofer ....... "If we don't work with Acts, what are we left with?"
[Blind] Faith.

And Eusebius.
A "cobbler of fables" [Augustine]; "Leucius is the disciple of the devil" [Decretum Gelasianum]; and his books "should be utterly swept away and burned" [Pope Leo I]; they are the "source and mother of all heresy" [Photius]
User avatar
Blood
Posts: 899
Joined: Sun Oct 06, 2013 8:03 am

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by Blood »

The Acts Seminar reached pretty much the same conclusions that Carrier did. Acts as fiction is not a controversial or fringe position.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
PhilosopherJay
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Ipetrich,

Yes, thanks for alerting us to this video and the excellent summary.

I am ashamed to say that I haven't read Carrier's latest book, yet. I was waiting for it to come out in digital format. (It is easier to copy notes this way.) I will definitely have to put it on my "must read soon" list.

I thought it was interesting that he gave away the premise of his next book at 58 minutes in the video -- that the gospels are a Euhemerization of a sky God. I am glad that he is more or less in agreement with Earl Doherty. Perhaps Doherty will now get the recognition he deserves in proving the mythological origin of the Jesus character.

It may also help to get Archaya S.' work rehabilitated a bit too, as despite some over-generalizations, her position is pretty close to this.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin
Leucius Charinus wrote:Thanks for the OP lpetrich. Great summary!!!

Ulan wrote:
Peter Pilhofer ....... "If we don't work with Acts, what are we left with?"
[Blind] Faith.

And Eusebius.
Bertie
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon May 12, 2014 3:21 pm

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by Bertie »

Repeating what a few others have said, on this particular subject Carrier isn't really out-of-mainstream by much if at all; this is trend for recent work on Acts (ahistoricity, knowledge of Josephus, dating that might go into the early 2nd century). If you don't like this sort of thing, take it up with, say, Richard Pervo (the source for a lot of this), not Carrier.
Steven Avery
Posts: 988
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:27 am

the fiction of Richard Carrier

Post by Steven Avery »

Hi Steven, thanks for the heads-up on Carrier's position.

You never did answer the question about Paul knowing Luke. ;)
toejam wrote:Carrier is pretty stock standard on most of his datings,

No such thing, and almost all his arguments are based on late dating. Simple example, for many Acts at c. 63 AD is "pretty stock standard" .. and if so, then we could simply throw out the Carrier talk as simply anecdotal entertainment, of no substance.
toejam wrote:though tends to lean on the later side of things. He accepts the consensus that 1 Thessalonians, Galatians, 1 & 2 Corinthians, Philippians, Philemon, Romans are best seen as authentic. The others he does not accept. .

To the large extent that his positioning is based on this view of inauthenticity, his talk is irrelevant to any real comparison of the evangelical and skeptical positions. In fact, he should put up a big sign:

*** This talk is based upon the presupposition of the New Testament as consisting of forgery documents. ***
*** If you do not accept that, this talk is not scholastically relevant. Circularity is my key. ***
toejam wrote:He dates Hebrews fairly early (pre-70CE), though does not think it was written by Paul.

Relatively minor disagreement here.
toejam wrote:I think the arguments against the authenticity of the Pastorals on the grounds of literary, theological and 'implied settings' factors are rather weighty.

You thinking on this will of course be looking to align with NT forgery (let's be honest with the word) positions. And I strongly disagree. And went over these rather flimsy situational and stylistic types of arguments on the Xtalk forum some years ago. On both 2 Peter and the Pastorals, being somewhat new to the whole endeavor, I was rather shocked at the weakness of the forgery case. It seems like an exercise in sand.

The main point is simple. If you start with such a presumption, conjecturally, totally unproven, you have no right to use that as a base of argumentation contra those of use who believe the whole New Testament.

Now, you can do that in debating with a gentleman like Zeba Crook, as an internal debate about the specifics of how not to believe the New Testament authenticity. (The NT is false, however Jesus may or may not have existed.) You are demonstrating nothing at all to a Bible believer, because your arguments are circular to previous inauthenticity arguments.
toejam wrote:Add to those the facts that early canon-compilers such as Marcion

Marcion, per Eusebius, had a 10-book canon. Not very relevant in taking a position against three books of a 27-book canon.
toejam wrote: either did not know of or disregarded them,.

Please indicate who are the other early canon compilers to whom you are referring.
toejam wrote:plus that Pauline forgeries were an early controversy (see 2 Thessalonians),

2 Thessalonians 2:2 (AV)
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled,
neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Which also indicates that the early church was diligent about authenticity. They knew Paul's letters. The idea that they added to them 50 years after his death I see as a non-starter. In fact, the consistent use of circularities of argument are the key issue here, as noted in the context of Pauline authenticity here:

Rhetorics in the New Millennium: Promise and Fulfillment (2010)
Pseudonymity As Rhetoric: A Prolegomenon To The Study Of Pauline Pseudepigrapha
Frank W. Hughes
http://www.ibiblio.org/corpus-paul/afr/rhetoric.htm

"As a result of the circularity of arguments against the Pauline authorship of several letters, some scholars have made fairly reasonable defenses of Paul's having written 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, and Colossians; and others do not hesitate to ascribe the Pastoral Letters to Paul."

And Ian Howard Marshall's point about 2 Thessalonians applies to the Pastorals, (and all ultra-late dating claims.)

"The later we set the date of the letter, the more difficult it becomes to explain its unopposed acceptance into the Pauline corpus; indeed, it is hard to envisage how an alleged Pauline letter addressed to a particular church could have escaped detection as a forgery." - 1 and 2 Thessalonians, p. 45

[quote="toejam"and I think it's a pretty solid case that Paul did not author them. I think the attempts to re-argue them back into the equation of authenticity are pretty weak.[/quote] Your concession speech, amounting to:

** We skeptics and mythicists can only attempt to demonstrate inauthenticity of Acts if you accept our presupposition that the New Testament consists of forged documents. **

Steven Avery
PhilosopherJay
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 7:02 pm

Re: the fiction of Richard Carrier

Post by PhilosopherJay »

Hi Steven,
1 Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled[a] among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. 3 With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, 4 so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
This sounds to me that the author claims to be following a tradition and not making anything up. This is exactly what Carrier says. Yet every scene is changed from Mark and Matthew and nobody has ever found any other sources that he used for these changes, (except perhaps sometimes the legendary "Q" source), which means he made things up, which is what Carrier says.

We can either believe the author or believe the evidence.

Also, where does Luke evaluate his sources? In every other historian in antiquity we have points where they name their sources (usually when they contradict each other) and they give an evaluation of which is most trustworthy. Luke is the only writer that does not do this and has been called an "historian." This seems to me a basic qualification for an historian as opposed to a fictional story teller.

Warmly,

Jay Raskin

Steven Avery wrote:GENERAL THOUGHTS

...
=====

There was one section in the early part where Carrier really skittled around playing games.

First, Carrier is saying that Luke did not self-trumpet his own qualifications. Does he want a "Hebrews of Hebrews" section? Theophilus the high priest knew exactly who he was, and Luke was relating specific events with people in his own family and social strata. If Luke trumpeted his own qualifications, "Yeshiva Gamaliel", he would surely be criticized for that as well, under lose-lose argumentation.

Carrier claims, without any evidence, that Luke did not do evaluation of his sources, yet the Prologue indicates exactly the opposite. So Carrier calls the Prologue "fake". This is the silliest type of circular argumentation, charlatan posturing. Then, from the same phoney position, Carrier lies and says that Luke is saying that he slavishly followed former gospels. When Luke actually said he was involved as an eyewitness and friends of eyewitnesses. (The simplest literal reading, as in the AV text.) It is very tacky, and scholastically incompetent, to call Luke's words fake. And then substitute your own in order to accuse Luke, when the "fake" words fully refute the Carrier accusation.

...

========



Thanks!

Steven Avery
Ulan
Posts: 1505
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2014 3:58 am

Re: the fiction of Richard Carrier

Post by Ulan »

Steven Avery wrote:First, I would just like to get a general outline of Carrier's timeline.
Carrier follows the timeline that is accepted by the majority of NT scholars. He doesn't use any freakishly early or late datings.
Steven Avery wrote:So how does he handle the Pauline references to Luke? Including Paul's reference to the scripture in Luke's gospel (1 Timothy 5:18).
I have no idea how Carrier handles these, but as Luke-Acts is generally dated to around 95 CE and 1Tim is usually dated past 100 CE, I don't see any problem for him. He doesn't even have to defend these assumptions, as they are standard dating.

Here the common dating of NT texts for reference (after P. Pilhofer). This table is used in the education of new Lutheran priests.
Last edited by Ulan on Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:54 am, edited 3 times in total.
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: Acts as fiction by Richard Carrier

Post by Bernard Muller »

I think Carrier presupposes Jesus' family was of great importance in the early Church of Jerusalem. I do not think it was the case before the gradual emergence of James. After all, Mary and the brothers are not presented as Jesus' followers in the gospels.
'Acts' is above all a religious text about the early dissemination of the Christian faith (in my view largely embellished, added with fiction and events out of sequence), not biographies of Jesus' family members.
Even so, Jesus' family is not entirely forgotten in 'Acts' (see 1: 14).
The Acts Seminar reached pretty much the same conclusions that Carrier did. Acts as fiction is not a controversial or fringe position.
The Acts Seminar also wrote:
Westar Acts Seminar release in 2013 (http://www.westarinstitute.org/projects ... -apostles/):
"This is not to say that Acts is totally unhistorical, but to observe that it is less helpful in the historical reconstruction of Christian beginnings than previously assumed."
I agree with that statement. And also this one:
James Tabor on these comments on pages 229-230 of "Paul and Jesus " (2012):
"Many historians are agreed that it merits the label, 'Use Sparingly with Extreme Caution.' As a general working method I have adopted the following three principles:
1. Never accept anything in Acts over Paul's own account in his seven genuine letters.
2. Cautiously consider Acts if it agrees with Paul's letters and one can detect no obvious biases.
3. Consider the independent information that Acts provides of interest but not of interpretive historical use."

I have some reservation on 2. & 3.
For 2. Cautiously consider Acts if it agrees with Paul's letters or shows obviously biased embellishments on the same narrated events. (because full agreements are very rare).
I would like to add:
4. Discard 'Acts' description of the beginning of the Church of Jerusalem if it conflicts with the gospels original endings, including gLuke.

I have two blog posts on the Acts Seminar:
http://historical-jesus.info/75.html
http://historical-jesus.info/76.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
Post Reply