The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Stephan Huller
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by Stephan Huller »

Thank you. A reasonable question. Here's where we start.

1. The Marcionite tradition was the original surviving Pauline tradition. They denied Acts and rejected the identification of Paul as Saul.
2. The Marcionite recension of the Pauline corpus did not have the long 'personal recognition' sections at the end of letters (as evidenced by Origen's statement about the 'abrupt' ending of Romans among other bits of information. Moreover Tertullian tells us that NO INFORMATION was forthcoming from the Marcionite canon about the identity of Paul he is shrouded in complete mystery, deliberately.

So who was Paul for the heretics? Not Saul. Not a student of Gamaliel and all the other baloney that has made its way to the Catholic canon. Where do we start reconstructing who he was. We start with various mystical references by the apostle that he was 'father' to the rest of the community (albeit unrecognized as such by others outside of the community) thus conforming to the figure of an ancient priest or Pope. But perhaps more significantly is the reference to the apostle as 'wise architect' or 'master builder.' This IMO is the clearest self-identification of the apostle as a 'supercharged' Demiurge, Yahweh who has been restored with his missing half Elohim (= Jesus), a 'spiritualized' being who created this world.

My guess would be that Paul was the first to bear Jesus in his soul and thus served not only to 'represent' the repentance of the Demiurge but also that of all those 'sons of Adam' (Adam identified to be the 'phaulos man' by the heretics) = the phauloi (notice fits with the strange silence of why there were no references to a group called 'those of Paul' in earliest Christian antiquity).

I admit that's not much in terms of identifying who Paul was but since Plato identified the Demiurge as phaulos and early Christians seem particularly attached to Plato it stands to reason in my mind that the apostle's self-identification with the Demiurge is likely to have been the origin of the title Paulos (via Aramaic where φαῦλος = ܦܘܠܘܤ = Παῦλος by means of the Aramaic spelling. In other words while φαῦλος is spelled with a phi, it is transliterated into Aramaic with pey which is the equivalent of pi as in Παῦλος. There are two different letters in Greek but pey takes the role of both phi and pi. That's where the confusion lay and the orthodox when they took over the apostolic writings took the title as a personal name and developed a mythical narrative about an Odyssean figure with the Roman name of Paulus (never quite explained in Acts but 'hinted' to have some relation to Sergius Paulus but what? He was so in love with the man he took his name :confusedsmiley: ) to fill the void in the occultated figure of the apostle in the heretical tradition.
Stephan Huller
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by Stephan Huller »

I have to admit I am attracted to theory because the Marcionite (and now Platonic) Demiurge is stupid rather than evil and humanity is similarly stupid (rather than evil) much in line with my own estimations about the people I've met. IMO there are very few truly evil people out there but everyone is basically stupid including me. :D
Stephan Huller
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by Stephan Huller »

Think also about the statement of Origen that the Marcionites envisioned Paul enthroned at the right hand of God. This equates the apostle with the Demiurge (Homilies on Luke)
Ulan
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by Ulan »

Stephan Huller wrote:But perhaps more significantly is the reference to the apostle as 'wise architect' or 'master builder.' This IMO is the clearest self-identification of the apostle as a 'supercharged' Demiurge, Yahweh who has been restored with his missing half Elohim (= Jesus), a 'spiritualized' being who created this world.
I guess this is my stumbling block. For me, there's too much human personality and insecurity in the Paul figure of the letters (despite his occasional delusions of grandeur) to swallow this, even without letter endings. The closest I can get is his position as former observant Jew, but I guess my idea of Yahweh or the Demiurge isn't quite compatible with a human being identifying with him.
Stephan Huller wrote:I admit that's not much in terms of identifying who Paul was but since Plato identified the Demiurge as phaulos and early Christians seem particularly attached to Plato it stands to reason in my mind that the apostle's self-identification with the Demiurge is likely to have been the origin of the title Paulos (via Aramaic where φαῦλος = ܦܘܠܘܤ = Παῦλος by means of the Aramaic spelling.
I could follow all of this, except, as I said, I'm not sure about the self-identification. The main reason is, as I said, that the Paulus figure has much more personality than the Jesus figure, which also means that I have problems with this being an after-the-fact act by the Marcionites. I should probably read more of the (proto-)gnostic texts.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by MrMacSon »

Ulan wrote:.
For me, there's too much human personality and insecurity in the Paul figure of the letters (despite his occasional delusions of grandeur) to swallow this, even without letter endings. The closest I can get is his position as former observant Jew, but I guess my idea of Yahweh or the Demiurge isn't quite compatible with a human being identifying with him.

... the Paulus figure has much more personality than the Jesus figure, which also means that I have problems with this being an after-the-fact act by the Marcionites. I should probably read more of the (proto-)gnostic texts.
Paul may be an anthropomorphized theology: an attempt to make it more human; more real.
Ulan
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by Ulan »

MrMacSon wrote:
Ulan wrote:.
Paul may be an anthropomorphized theology: an attempt to make it more human; more real.
Maybe. But I'm unconvinced. Paul is too much "anthropomorphized" for me. You can make a pretty detailed character analysis from his letters, and he just screams "sect founder" to me. It's little details like when he suddenly cites Jesus (which he otherwise pretty much never does) when it's about asking for payment. He has very human weaknesses in little things. Compare that to the pale figure of Acts or Jesus himself, who is so impersonal that there's need to write four different characters for him.
Stephan Huller
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by Stephan Huller »

I'll speak for the heretical Paul tradition of antiquity. How much corruption do you suppose occurred to what was originally Marcionite scriptures? Some? None? A lot?
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by MrMacSon »

Is there an on-line version of the reconstructed Marcionite Apostilikon?
Last edited by MrMacSon on Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by MrMacSon »

Ulan wrote:
MrMacSon wrote: Paul may be an anthropomorphized theology: an attempt to make it more human; more real.
Maybe. But I'm unconvinced. Paul is too much "anthropomorphized" for me. You can make a pretty detailed character analysis from his letters, and he just screams "sect founder" to me. It's little details like when he suddenly cites Jesus (which he otherwise pretty much never does) when it's about asking for payment. He has very human weaknesses in little things. Compare that to the pale figure of Acts or Jesus himself, who is so impersonal that there's need to write four different characters for him.
"very human weaknesses" - whether written by Paul solely, or partially, the letters would have been written by a person or persons (in a scriptorium?) trying to come to terms with changing theologies. The Pastorals are considered to have been written by "others".

"four different characters for him" - I presume you mean the Canonical Gospels?
.
robert j
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Re: The Solution to the Problem of 'Paul'

Post by robert j »


Stephan Huller wrote,
the preferred method of identifying the apostle in early writings was 'ho apostolos.' References to his name 'Paul' are very rare. Part of the reason can be explained that making reference to a teacher called ho phaulos would be embarrassingly strange to non-Christians.

That makes a lot of sense. I have often wondered why the Patristic authors so often referred to “the apostle” rather than “Paul”. The idea that the name Paulos/Phaulos could be seen as carrying a negative connotation provides a reasonable explanation.

robert j.
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