Matthew 27:25: a self-blaming lynch mob?

[Stephan Huller]

And as an addendum - if you don't know anything about Hebrew and refuse to learn even the basics about this ancient language, stop trying to make sense of concepts that develop from Hebrew. Unless of course if you want to pretend that 'Christ' isn't a Jewish concept or doesn't develop from a Hebrew word or wasn't already defined in the Jewish community of the time ... God luck with all that.

I do wonder why mythicism tends to go hand in hand with a conscious effort to depreciate or devalue the Jewish influence over Christianity.

[MrMacSon]

^ There is clearly a Jewish influence in Christianity and its development.

What Hebrew word/s did the Greek versions of Christ develop from?

[Stephan Huller]

I answered that in the previous post.

[MrMacSon]

omit & add -

This? -- http://www.earlywritings.com/forum/view ... =20#p19105

Aside from this, there is no Hebrew or Aramaic word “Messiah”. This is an ARTIFICIAL word only existing in late modern English. There is the Hebrew word משיח Mashiach (approximate pronunciation) and the Aramaic Meshiach (approximate pronunciation) and definite Meshicha (approximate pronunciation) and the Greek phonetic transcription Messias (where the 's' is a Greek suffix).

A source of confusion is that the Aramaic and Greek forms also render the Hebrew Kohen Mashuach, an anointed High Priest. Another source of confusion is that although the word Mashiach = Christos in the Psalms usually refers to any earthly temporal king, in some places it refers to a heavenly figure known from Canaanite mythology and from contemporary writings about Melchizedek, seen as manifestation of a heavenly figure. (King of Salem = King of Peace. Melchizedek means King of Righteousness, as in the Christmas carol “Hark the Heavenly Angels Sing”, which says “Hail the King of Righteousness”. The phrase in the carol is a conscious translation of Melchizedek [Malki-tsedek in modern transcription]). A further difficulty is that some occurrences of Mashiach = Christos have both the earthly and the heavenly meanings.

It was the Marcionite understanding that Jesus NEVER EVER ONCE used the term Mashiach = Christos = Anointed for himself. This was because THE Messiah, i.e. well known Jewish salvic figure, i.e. the one like David was understood to be someone else.

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χρηϲτοϲ (Chrestus) or Χριστός (Christos / Khristos / kʰriːstós / Xristos)

[Blood]

And as an addendum - if you don't know anything about Hebrew and refuse to learn even the basics about this ancient language, stop trying to make sense of concepts that develop from Hebrew. Unless of course if you want to pretend that 'Christ' isn't a Jewish concept or doesn't develop from a Hebrew word or wasn't already defined in the Jewish community of the time ... God luck with all that.

I do wonder why mythicism tends to go hand in hand with a conscious effort to depreciate or devalue the Jewish influence over Christianity.

There you go again with your subtle insinuations that mythicism is somehow motivated by a latent anti-Semitism, when in reality, the opposite is the case. You see the disconnection between the two religions yourself (as this thread shows), yet for some reason you get defensive and protective when anyone suggests that perhaps the reason why the disconnections are there is because "Christianity" was a Gentile cultus from the beginning. Was it influenced by Judaism? Of course.

[toejam]

^If Christianity was a Gentile cultus from the beginning, how do you explain the controversies over how and whether or not the Mosaic laws should be followed? Seems to me that such a controversy is more naturally to have arisen as a Jewish sect made inroads into the Gentile communities (as the NT sources indicate) rather than the other way around. How do you explain Paul's rivals, the "Judaizing circumcision party" and Ebionitism etc.?

[Stephan Huller]

There you go again with your subtle insinuations that mythicism is somehow motivated by a latent anti-Semitism, when in reality, the opposite is the case.

Where in this post do I accuse anyone of 'anti-Semitism'? Where did I do it before that you say 'again' as well? I accuse people of intellectual laziness not of hatred for the Jews. The argument that 'Christ' doesn't mean 'messiah' or isn't an appropriation of a Jewish theological concept is among the stupidest claims mythicists typically make. The difficulty is that the text of the gospel has been changed in order to foster a relationship between Jesus and the messiah concept.

You see the disconnection between the two religions yourself (as this thread shows), yet for some reason you get defensive and protective when anyone suggests that perhaps the reason why the disconnections are there is because "Christianity" was a Gentile cultus from the beginning. Was it influenced by Judaism? Of course

My argument is consistent and logical and develops from the existing sources. In the contemporary world 'messiah' or 'Christ' meant exactly what 'messiah' meant for the Jews. In the original gospel Jesus denied the association between himself and this Jewish concept. The blind man at Jericho, Jesus's rebuking of Peter when he calls him by this name are only a few of the examples of this phenomenon and it is supported by what the Marcionites are known to have said. Again, I am telling mythicists to give up making up shit about what 'the Christ' could have meant in the contemporary environment. It just makes them look foolish. THE messiah always meant secular monarch.

[John T]

The word 'messiah' in Hebrew is 'mashiyach' and means ‘anointed’. The title messiah/anointed could apply to anyone assigned by God to do his work. For example, Isa. 45:1 refers to Cyrus the gentile as God’s anointed. However, for the Essenes they anticipated two different anointed ones (some scholars hint to 3 messiahs) tasked to bring deliverance to the Jewish people. Their vision of the anointed ones were the Heavenly Prince Melchizedek and/or the archangel Michael, (IIQ13:15-20). For followers of James the Just (the brother of Jesus), the messiahs of the Jews and Essenes are one and the same but also known as the “son of man” who is the risen Jesus Christ.

So, the origin for the Hebrew word “messiah” has very little importance as to who is the anointed prince in Daniel 9:25. What is more important is according to New Testament the Jews rejected Jesus as their anointed prince/messiah and thus rejected their only form of salvation for the chosen people thus the source of the animosity.

Sincerely,
John T

[Stephan Huller]

Your analysis has so many leaps of logic I scarcely know where to start. I have outlined the context and the meaning of the word messiah in my previous post. Nothing you have said here provides any correction of that understanding.

Translation of of 11Q 13 (11QMelch) Col. II

1 [...] … [...]

2 [...] And as for what he said: Lev 25:13 « In [this] year of jubilee, [you shall return, each one, to his respective property », concerning it he said: Deut 15:2 « Th]is is

3 [the manner of the release:] every creditor shall release what he lent [to his neighbour. He shall not coerce his neighbour or his brother, for it has been proclaimed] a release

4 for G[od ». Its interpretation] for the last days refers to the captives, who [...] and whose

5 teachers have been hidden and kept secret, and from the inheritance of Melchizedek, fo[r ...] … and they are the inherita[nce of Melchize]dek, who

6 will make them return. And liberty will be proclaimed for them, to free them from [the debt of] all their iniquities. And this [wil]l [happen]

7 in the first week of the jubilee which follows the ni[ne] jubilees. And the d[ay of aton]ement is the e[nd of] the tenth [ju]bilee

8 in which atonement shall be made for all the sons of [light and] for the men [of] the lot of Mel[chi]zedek. [...] … over [the]m … [...] accor[ding to] a[ll] their [wor]ks, for

9 it is the time for the « year of grace » of Melchizedek, and of [his] arm[ies, the nat]ion of the holy ones of God, of the rule of judgment, as is written

10 about him in the songs of David, who said: Ps 82:1 « Elohim will [st]and in the assem[bly of God,] in the midst of the gods he judges ». And about him he sai[d: Ps 7:8-9 « And] above [it,]

11 to the heights, return: God will judge the peoples ». As for what he sa[id: Ps 82:2 « How long will you] judge unjustly and show partia[lity] to the wicked? [Se]lah. »

12 Its interpretation concerns Belial and the spirits of his lot, wh[o ...] turn[ing aside] from the commandments of God to [commit evil.]

13 But, Melchizedek will carry out the vengeance of Go[d's] judgments, [and on that day he will fr]e[e them from the hand of] Belial and from the hand of all the sp[irits of his lot.]

14 To his aid (shall come) all « the gods of [justice »; and h]e is the one w[ho ...] all the sons of God, and … [...]

15 This [...] is the day of [peace about whi]ch he said [... through Isa]iah the prophet, who said: [Isa 52:7 « How] beautiful

16 upon the mountains are the feet [of] the messen[ger who] announces peace, the mess[enger of good who announces salvati]on, [sa]ying to Zion: your God [reigns. »]

17 Its interpretation: The mountains [are] the prophet[s ...] … [...] for all … [...]

18 And the messenger i the anointed of the spir[it] as Dan[iel] said [about him: Dan 9:25 « Until an anointed, a prince, it is seven weeks. » And the messenger of]

19 good who announ[ces salvation] is the one about whom it is written that [...]

20 « To comfo[rt] the [afflicted », its interpretation:] to instruct them in all the ages of the wo[rld ...]

21 in truth … [...] … [...]

22 [...] has turned away from Belial and will re[turn ...] … [...]

23 [...] in the judgment God, as is written about him: [Isa 52:7 « Saying to Zi]on: your God rules. » [« Zi]on » i

24 [the congregation of all the sons of justice, those] who establish the covenant, those who avoid walking [on the pa]th of the people. And « your God » is

25 [... Melchizedek, who will fr]e[e them from the ha]nd of Belial. And as for what he said: Lev 25:9 « You shall blow the hor[n in] all the [l]and of

The translation is taken from Dead Sea Scrolls Study Edition (eds.García Martinez and Eibert J. C. Tigchelaar, 1209). Highlights in the translation indicate the parts of the Old Testament verses.

So let's look at this text. The first reference to the concept of anointed one is Daniel 9:26 where it says:

15 This [...] is the day of [peace about whi]ch he said [... through Isa]iah the prophet, who said: [Isa 52:7 « How] beautiful

16 upon the mountains are the feet [of] the messen[ger who] announces peace, the mess[enger of good who announces salvati]on, [sa]ying to Zion: your God [reigns. »]

17 Its interpretation: The mountains [are] the prophet[s ...] … [...] for all … [...]

18 And the messenger i the anointed of the spir[it] as Dan[iel] said [about him: Dan 9:25 « Until an anointed, a prince, it is seven weeks. » And the messenger of]

So it would be your argument that there was a group that the 'messenger' of Isa 52:7 who is here also the anointed of Daniel 9:25 is a heavenly being? This is not supported by the text. This is just a wild conjecture which has no support from known interpretations of either Isa 52 or Daniel 9. Just to remind the reader, Daniel 9:25 reads:

"Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble.

This figure cannot be a heavenly figure and significantly nagid means 'secular ruler' (the equivalent of the Greek archêlaos or ethnarchos). It is a term most often associated with David. Samuel announces that Yahweh has sought a man after his own heart and "appointed him to be nagid over his people." In the story of David's rise Abigail uses equally formulaic language to announce that Yahweh "has appointed [David] nagid over Israel." The list goes on and on. Fitzmeyer doesn't know what he is talking about here. While examples must exist somewhere, I can't think of nagid being applied to a divine being offhand. Got to work.

[Bertie]

Stephan Huller: Does your theory require that all uses of the word Christ embedded within "authentic" 1st Century Pauline material that (under your theory as I understand it) were part of the Marcion tradition be later additions?