As I only come to these matters from the perspective of how human beings edit experience in memory let's compare Dragas's memory from thirtyish years later with Quesnell's notes:
Dragas:
Kallistos (Dourvas) - not an easy person to get along with but an honest man
the reason why the books were all move to the Patriarchate was to prevent monks from selling them ('losing' them as he put it)
the day Quesnell came to ask for the document Dragas was there.
He was standing with Kallistos when an American with a white beard came up and demanded to see the document that Morton Smith claimed to have discovered.
a text was shown to Dragas (Kallistos was his friend)
Kallistos said that there was a rude American who said he just came from the Patriarch and that he (Kallistos) should just give it to him
'I've just come from the Patriarch' sent to librarian
This man (Quesnell) interrupted conversations not patient (this dovetails with the advice Q got from the Catholic representative to just barge in and force his way to see the text qv)
Kallistos didn't take abuse from anyone
'You think I am a ===
annoyed with the American
Kallistos complained in Greek about all the people who came to look for the document
"You think we are here to just serve you"
Kallistos knew all about Smith's book and the document
He told Quesnell he had to go back out the door and come back and apologize and start over again
Quesnell mentioned the homosexual business and that it would threaten Christianity; Kallistos said that was nonsense.
Kallistos was a great man; he was so dedicated to the truth. He wouldn't allow for the destruction of the text because it was holy
he is so good that he wouldn't oblige the Patriarch if he thought the request was wrong
Dragas isn't sure what year this occurred in. He thought 1986 but then remembered he had been there many times in that period
His students were the Patriarch Theophilus and the second in command Theophanes (the Archbishop of Gerash)
They were in Jerusalem before 1981 and the Patriarch said George I think you should take care of our brothers ...
One time they interrupted their studies because the Patriarch at the time wanted them to come home
Dragas went to Jerusalem so that they would be allowed to submit their theses
Theophilus said he was not interested in a degree - he was a monk.
Dragas succeeded in convincing the Patriarch to allow them to continue.
They were working to complete their doctorate but they couldn't because of other obligations
It is impossible that the document was destroyed. Must be a religious reason
They kept it.
He will try and contact Kallistos out of the Orthodox Directory and ask him questions
Also he recommended that I write to Theophanes who is a good man. Tell him your sincere wish - that you talked to me (Dragas) - and maybe they will allow tests to be done.
He would try to convince them too as we all have an interest in the truth.
He said no one could smuggle a book into the library. He knew the library well. Impossible. He thinks its an authentic apocryphon from antiquity.
Quesnell notes from June 1, 1983:
Talked to M Arnand (Vatican representative for pilgrimages) he says just barge in on the Patriarchate and demand (ask) to "le secrétaire en chef." That's the only way to get results from them.
Second [written above the word 'First' which is crossed out] Day: Thursday June 2
A.M saw sec'y of [two scribbles] Chief Secretary
who sends to librarian: says it is up to him
Librarian (Charistos [in Greek letters]) says come back Monday from 8:30 to 11:30 am
see the ms. he says found it &
brought it from Mar Saba 10 years ago (c.) Feels sure that it is 18th c. old
Says there were heretics, heretical schools
often at M.S. and this is fragment [sic] in part in part of a Hapousi (?)
to one of their books. He does not think it is from S. Clement. He remembers someone noting in some [monastic] publication that some did report seeing this in the 16th ? 17th ? century
He does not want others to come with me to work on the ms. He is not worried that the ms. is used for anti-Xtn [anti-Christian] propaganda.
[Marginal note] >> I must find find Flusser and Meliton <<
asked if there are other books with 18th c. notes written in. He says no, not here; perhaps at Mar Saba. I could go and look.
Clearly Dragas was there when Quesnell asked for the document. Too many of the details line up. Clearly also Quesnell began the process of spreading lies about homosexuality both in the text and Morton Smith's motivation in 1983. This is the reason why the text has disappeared in my humble opinion. That's why this theory about forgery persists. If Quesnell and others hadn't taken this tact we'd have tested the document by now and science would have determined its antiquity.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:15 am, edited 2 times in total.
I am bringing up facts that few people have ever considered. Before I started this thread I had no idea that the whole Greek Orthodox Patriarchate accepted the document as genuine. Did you? You claim to have known that?
Who's left? Morton Smith writes in 1973 about him visiting in 1958 his friends the Patriarch and Seraphim, whom he knew in the 1940s, the people who ran the Jerusalem Patriarchate and the Mar Saba monastery when he discovered the document. Seraphim must have been immediately apprised of Morton Smith's discovery. It must have been within 24 hours of his uncovering the text in 1958. They were old friends. He allowed Morton Smith to take his photo and Smith calls him his "old friend." The letter that Tselikas produces (but doesn't translate) from 1976 says the letter was regarded by both Patriarchate and monastery as genuine. Smith and Landau (who promote a nuanced acceptance of the text) pretend not to understand what the letter is saying. The letter is saying it is a genuine letter of Clement. That doesn't mean that it is genuine or that it is a genuine letter of Clement. But that's what the letter says. Kallistos Dourvas was the official librarian of the Patriarchate until 1990. He thought the letter was a genuine (ancient) pseudepigraphon. It only changed with new leadership at the Patriarchate and I would argue you guys spreading complete nonsense about the document and Morton Smith at the time of the discovery. The document does not make a reference to "naked man with naked man." In order for this to be a forgery you would have argue for the mental incapacitation or simple-mindedness of the entire educated staff of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate.
In order to say that all these Greeks were clueless about Morton Smith you'd have to accept some form of mental retardation with the staff at the Patriarchate. How could Morton Smith have gotten a specific allotment of books. Exclaimed "Eureka!" The books are taken back. No one notices there is an extra book when the book in question is so distinctive. Book in the library are like Playstation video games in a monastery. It's their only form of "external" mental relaxation. Someone doesn't notice that Morton Smith brought a new version of FIFA. They were playing FIFA 2009 and suddenly there's FIFA 2023. And Morton Smith is celebrating how great he is playing FIFA 2023. Come on.
And another thing. Let's use the analogy of the Garden of Eden. Until "Western speculation" about homosexuality and an agenda against Church slithered into the door of the Patriarchate with Quesnell everyone was cool with the document. The document would be available today if it wasn't for Quesnell and other conspiracy theorists. June 1st should be marked on the calendar as the day the Mar Saba document was taken away from us.
Secret Alias wrote: ↑Tue Apr 16, 2024 7:11 am
He remembers someone noting in some [monastic] publication that some did report seeing this in the 16th ? 17th ? century
