THE DEMIURGE

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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arnoldo
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THE DEMIURGE

Post by arnoldo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:37 am

Feeling an urge to learn more about the demiurge? Read this book.

O'Brien, C. Plotinus and the demise of the Demiurge. In The Demiurge in Ancient Thought: Secondary Gods and Divine Mediators. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.

Ethan
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Ethan » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:17 am

δημιουργός
one who works for the people, a skilled workman, handicraftsman, of medical practitioners, of sculptors.
in some Peloponnesian states, the name of a magistrate.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon

This seems to be a form of cognitive dissonances with language.
https://vivliothikiagiasmatos.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/joseph-yahuda-hebrew-is-greek.pdf

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arnoldo
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by arnoldo » Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:01 pm

Ethan wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:17 am
δημιουργός
one who works for the people, a skilled workman, handicraftsman, of medical practitioners, of sculptors.
in some Peloponnesian states, the name of a magistrate.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/mor ... ek#lexicon

This seems to be a form of cognitive dissonances with language.
There also seems to be different interpretations of this term.
defdemiurge.PNG
defdemiurge.PNG (113.18 KiB) Viewed 4025 times

Joseph D. L.
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Joseph D. L. » Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:09 pm

One reason to reject Giuseppe's many posts about the demiurge is that he makes these sects, or "gnostics" out to be obsessed with it, when in reality, the demiurge was secondary at best in their systems. Paul's Epistles, which Marcion either wrote or adopted, make no mention, direct or indirect, of a "demiurge", δημιουργός. Instead all Giuseppe can point to are vague passages that he interprets as referencing demiurge, which only begs the question as to why they would conceal this idea in these texts, when there are known texts that make explicit mention of demiurge? Nor was there always some nefarious connotation with demiurge, and the majority of gnostics only considered it as inferior to the true, unfathomable God, and not evil. Giuseppe doesn't know what he's talking about.

Giuseppe
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:51 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:09 pm
. Paul's Epistles, which Marcion either wrote or adopted, make no mention, direct or indirect, of a "demiurge", δημιουργός.
without offence, but this is the greatest idiocy from your mouth.

There Tertullian complains that Marcion left aside the 'in'/ἐν (τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων ἐν τῷ θεῷ τῷ τὰ πάντα κτίσαντι), hence understood the text as saying that the mysteries were hidden 'from' the God who created the all, hence the creator

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2016/ ... n.html?m=1
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

nightshadetwine
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by nightshadetwine » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:13 am

Thanks for the recommendation! I'll check that out.

It seems the earliest texts to contain the concept of the demiurge are Egyptian.

The Shabaka Stone: An Introduction(Studia Antiqua 7, no. 1, 2009), Joshua J. Bodine
The descriptions of the “relations between Ptah and Atum,” opines Iversen, “were not attempts to elevate one at the expense of the other, but purely theological attempts to define the difference between creator and demiurge.”... —Ptah was creator while Atum was demiurge (second god) who was a Memphite deity and “not his Heliopolitan counterpart and namesake.” Looked at in context with other Egyptian conceptions of creation—where there was an “immaterial creator responsible for creation as such,” who is “projected . . . into a second, sensible god” who carries out material creation—the Shabaka text was simply a treatise explicating the local Memphite version of creation... The Memphite Theology was clearly setting forth the idea of creation as a combination of both immaterial and material principles, with Ptah serving as the connection between the two. Creation, according to the Shabaka Stone, was both a spiritual or intellectual creation as well as a physical one. It was through the divine heart (thought)79 and tongue (speech/word) of Ptah as the great causer of something to take shape in the form of the physical agent of creation Atum, through which everything came forth. Importantly, creation was first and foremost an intellectual activity and only then a physical one. The intellectual principles of creative thought and commanding speech were realized in Ptah and could be said to be embodied in him. He is that which “causes every conclusion to emerge” (line 56)...
If you're interested, I did a post on the logos/mediators here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AcademicBiblic ... f_god_and/

Joseph D. L.
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:20 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:51 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:09 pm
. Paul's Epistles, which Marcion either wrote or adopted, make no mention, direct or indirect, of a "demiurge", δημιουργός.
without offence, but this is the greatest idiocy from your mouth.

There Tertullian complains that Marcion left aside the 'in'/ἐν (τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων ἐν τῷ θεῷ τῷ τὰ πάντα κτίσαντι), hence understood the text as saying that the mysteries were hidden 'from' the God who created the all, hence the creator

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2016/ ... n.html?m=1
How does “τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων ἐν τῷ θεῷ τῷ τὰ πάντα κτίσαντι” equate to demiurge? It doesn’t you fucking moron.

Giuseppe
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Giuseppe » Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:37 am

Joseph D. L. wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:20 am
Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:51 am
Joseph D. L. wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:09 pm
. Paul's Epistles, which Marcion either wrote or adopted, make no mention, direct or indirect, of a "demiurge", δημιουργός.
without offence, but this is the greatest idiocy from your mouth.

There Tertullian complains that Marcion left aside the 'in'/ἐν (τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων ἐν τῷ θεῷ τῷ τὰ πάντα κτίσαντι), hence understood the text as saying that the mysteries were hidden 'from' the God who created the all, hence the creator

http://markusvinzent.blogspot.com/2016/ ... n.html?m=1
How does “τοῦ μυστηρίου τοῦ ἀποκεκρυμμένου ἀπὸ τῶν αἰώνων ἐν τῷ θεῷ τῷ τὰ πάντα κτίσαντι” equate to demiurge? It doesn’t you fucking moron.
I have quoted it as an example of a passage where the creator is portrayed negatively by a false "Paul".

And I know only a negative creator: the one called demiurge.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.

Joseph D. L.
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:38 am

Giuseppe wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:37 am
I have quoted it as an example of a passage where the creator is portrayed negatively by a false "Paul".
Which it isn't. Read the passage. There is no such implication.
And I know only a negative creator: the one called demiurge.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc!!!

Joseph D. L.
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Re: THE DEMIURGE

Post by Joseph D. L. » Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:41 am

There is only two possibilities with Giuseppe...

Either his mind is so much more advanced than ours that we cannot hope to understand him...

or, he is a charlatan who thrives on ambiguity and has no clear understanding of anything he says himself.

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