Hagarism

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ghost
Posts: 503
Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:12 am

Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

clive wrote:Thought I would look at some key texts and after getting out of print messages and silly prices from an infamous organisation found it!
I fail to see how this is better than "Good Bye Mohammed":

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=234

…or just reading the Mohammed legend:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=250
ghost
Posts: 503
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Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

Gibson also talks about it:

http://searchformecca.com/mecca.html
Gibson discovered that when discussing early Islamic history with Muslim scholars that as soon as one mentioned Dr. Crone, the conversation immediately focuses on the “Hagarism” theory, often with bitter comments and angry reactions, and it became impossible for them to address the thoughts presented in her later works.
http://nabataea.net/MeccaProblems.html
ghost
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Joined: Wed Oct 30, 2013 9:12 am

Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

To begin with, it's not clear how the prophet mentioned in Doctrina Iacobi is the same as the Mohammed mentioned in the legend attributed to Ibn Ishaq. So how do you know they're the same?
ghost
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Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

Or let's put it this way: why is Doctrina Iacobi mentioned to begin with? What is the supposed importance of Doctrina Iacobi?

Another question: why is it assumed that Umar existed?
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Blood
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Re: Hagarism

Post by Blood »

"It is cast in the form of a dialogue between Jews set in Carthage in the year 634; it was in all probability written in Palestine within a few years of that date."

Beware of scholars positing that texts were written close to the date internal to the text. "In all probability" is a loose, duplicitous term deployed to make a theory sound more grounded in reality than it actually is.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
ghost
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Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

clive wrote:And on balance of evidence, why not go with him being alive eight years after his death, especially as there are theological reasons for saying the death is earlier?
What are the sources for Umar's existence?
ghost
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Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

clive wrote:I am beginning to realise why I love the book Hagarism. It is in the tradition of the Golden Bough.

We have become too, ooh, don't know about that. Actually some grand theory is actually very valuable!
Can you please explain for beginners who or what a "hagar" is?
Clive
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Re: Hagarism

Post by Clive »

"Hagar (/heɪˈɡɑr/ hay-gar; Hebrew: הָגָר, Modern Hagar Tiberian Hāgār, meaning "uncertain";[1] Arabic: هاجر‎ Hājar; Greek: Ἄγαρ Agar; Latin: Agar) is a biblical person in the Book of Genesis Chapter 16. She was an Egyptian handmaid of Sarai (Sarah),[1] who gave her to Abram (Abraham) to bear a child. Thus came the firstborn, Ishmael, the patriarch of the Ishmaelites. The name Hagar originates from the Book of Genesis, is mentioned in Hadith, and alluded to in the Qur'an. She is revered in the Islamic faith and acknowledged in all Abrahamic faiths. In mainstream Christianity, she is considered a concubine to Abram.[1]"

Wiki
Clive
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Re: Hagarism

Post by Clive »

Very briefly, Hagarism is the idea that for the first couple of hundred years Islam was not fully formed, and its current image was created in Babylon at least a 100 years later, with very strong Judaic scholastic influences.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
ghost
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Re: Hagarism

Post by ghost »

You mention the first two centuries. What role do you think the Ummayads played in that?
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