'Apollonius of Tyana' is a fictional construct, an historische roman: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, by Philostratus c.235 AD.
On Late Dating, I recall another historische roman, Achilles Tatius' Leucippe et Clitophon, written c.110 AD, for which a papyrus fragment of an ancient copy survives (P.Oxy. X 1250, 4th century CE). However, the earliest literary record for this work is apparently Photius' Bibliotheca c.860 AD ... 750 years later. Late-Dating by 'literary proof' fails again, badly.
In comparing archaeological data and multiple literary sources to the excellent description in Leucippe et Clitophon 3.6, it becomes fairly obvious the 'Temple of Zeus Kasios' in Pelusium (Sethrum/Siriad) exhibited a statue (ἄγαλμα νεανίσκος) of his Son or Grandson, Hor-apollo/Eshmun/Rimmon holding a pomegranate. Yet the 2nd C. AD Author did not know this! A similar statue was found in Gaza fairly recently; similar examples have survived and were also described in Antiquity.
The work by Philostratus (c.235 AD) could be cobbling together bits that were hundreds of years older. Probably!
Is Plotinus in the NHL??
-
Leucius Charinus
- Posts: 2842
- Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
- Location: memoriae damnatio
Re: Apollonius of Tyana
In which case you'll need to explain an inscription to Apollonius
https://www.jstor.org/stable/630745
An Epigram on Apollonius of Tyana
C. P. Jones
The Journal of Hellenic Studies,
Vol. 100, Centennary Issue. (1980),
pp. 190-194.
An inscription of major importance, now in the New Museum of Adana, contains an epigram on Apollonius of Tyana. Almost simultaneously, a preliminary text has been provided by E. L. Bowie, and a full publication with discussion and photograph by G. Dagron and J. Marcillet-Jaubert. I offer here a text, translation, and commentary, and look for a historical and cultural setting.
The inscription is cut on a single large block, now damaged on the left, which originally served as an architrave or lintel. The photograph (PLATE Ib) makes detailed comment on the palaeography superfluous: but it is worth noting the sign of punctuation (:) after XXXXX and of elision (~) after rho'; the leaf filling the vacant space at the end of line 4; and generally the very affected script, notably the rho shaped like a shepherd's crook, the complicated xi and the lyre-shaped omega. This strange lettering makes it more than usually hazardous to date the inscription from this feature alone. A date in the third or fourth century seems roughly right, and would accord with the content of the epigram.
The origin of the stone is also uncertain, though it is presumably a place in eastern, 'level', Cilicia. An attractive suggestion, independently made by Bowie and the other two editors, is the coastal city of Aegaeae. This is closely connected with Apollonius: the young sage received his Pythagorean training in the city, and began his religious career by residing in the famous sanctuary of Asclepius. His stay in Aegaeae was subsequently narrated by one of the citizens, a certain Maximus . However, the claims of a city closer to Adana should not be ignored - Tarsus. Apollonius began his studies in Tarsus, but in disgust at its immorality moved to its rival Aegaeae; later, however, after he had interceded for the city with the emperor Titus, it considered him a 'founder and mainstay'; and he also performed a miraculous cure there.
I propose the following text and translation:
--- Ancient inscription, translated C. P. Jones
C. P. Jones
The Journal of Hellenic Studies,
Vol. 100, Centennary Issue. (1980),
pp. 190-194.
An inscription of major importance, now in the New Museum of Adana, contains an epigram on Apollonius of Tyana. Almost simultaneously, a preliminary text has been provided by E. L. Bowie, and a full publication with discussion and photograph by G. Dagron and J. Marcillet-Jaubert. I offer here a text, translation, and commentary, and look for a historical and cultural setting.
The inscription is cut on a single large block, now damaged on the left, which originally served as an architrave or lintel. The photograph (PLATE Ib) makes detailed comment on the palaeography superfluous: but it is worth noting the sign of punctuation (:) after XXXXX and of elision (~) after rho'; the leaf filling the vacant space at the end of line 4; and generally the very affected script, notably the rho shaped like a shepherd's crook, the complicated xi and the lyre-shaped omega. This strange lettering makes it more than usually hazardous to date the inscription from this feature alone. A date in the third or fourth century seems roughly right, and would accord with the content of the epigram.
The origin of the stone is also uncertain, though it is presumably a place in eastern, 'level', Cilicia. An attractive suggestion, independently made by Bowie and the other two editors, is the coastal city of Aegaeae. This is closely connected with Apollonius: the young sage received his Pythagorean training in the city, and began his religious career by residing in the famous sanctuary of Asclepius. His stay in Aegaeae was subsequently narrated by one of the citizens, a certain Maximus . However, the claims of a city closer to Adana should not be ignored - Tarsus. Apollonius began his studies in Tarsus, but in disgust at its immorality moved to its rival Aegaeae; later, however, after he had interceded for the city with the emperor Titus, it considered him a 'founder and mainstay'; and he also performed a miraculous cure there.
I propose the following text and translation:
- 'This man, named after Apollo,
and shining forth Tyana,
extinguished the faults of men.
The tomb in Tyana (received) his body,
but in truth heaven received him
so that he might drive out the pains of men
(or:drive pains from among men) .'
--- Ancient inscription, translated C. P. Jones
Re: Three Centuries Later, She Said
A Fourth C inscription about a somewhat or largely fictional character described in the Early Third C? Of a purportedly Historical Apollonius, who lived in the First C? The oldest 'Jesus' evidence is quicker than that.Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 8:11 pmIn which case you'll need to explain an inscription to Apollonius
Aelius Aristides (c.175 AD) was fanatic devotee of Aesculapius, and highly literate. Why doesn't he reference this famous 'Apollonius of Tyana' (c.95 AD), a spectacular guru-author who lived and died ~three generations earlier? Because 'Apollonius of Tyana' is a fictional construct, an historische roman: The Life of Apollonius of Tyana, by Philostratus c.235 AD.
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andrewcriddle
- Posts: 2857
- Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am
Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??
Allogenes (The Stranger) was used as a title for more than one Gnostic work. It is unclear what relation the Allogenes known to Plotinus and Porphyry has to the Allogenes found at Nag Hammadi.billd89 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:11 pmMajercik [2005], p.277:andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 2:21 amI agree Allogenes is influenced by Porphyry ...
Andrew CriddleWhat complicates this picture is that Gnostic texts with the titles Zostrianos and Allogenes are also mentioned by Porphyry in his Life of Plotinus (Plot. 16). Porphyry indicates that these and other Gnostic works known to Plotinus and his circle were in the possession of ‘Christian heretics’
Precedence: Allogenes would not be "influenced by Porphyry" but rather vice-versa. Porphyry (270 AD) referencing Gnostic titles "known to Plotinus and his circle" (c.230 AD) strongly implies literature established more than a generation earlier (c.175-200 AD), at least. In Antiquity, literature circulated over generations, rather than months or years: your fallacy is a modern bias assuming 'recent' because that's our reality. It simply was not so, then.
For such literature to have already influenced divers Christian sectaries in Plotinus' lifetime (c.225 AD) logically means known Gnostic Christian groups used even older known works, likely if not probably "pre-Christian" (Gnostics were pre-Christian) from the 1st and 2nd Centuries.
In the First Century, it is also certain Josephus (90 AD) knew Judeo-Sethian -- not Xian! -- myths, of their 'three stele in Egypt', for example. So it's entirely logical that the BOOK 'Three Steles of Seth' (in some form) was likewise already circulating, known literature (c.75 AD, if not earlier), for Josephus to be so familiar with their literary compositions. Older literature, folks.
Majercik [2005] simply has it ass-backwards. Copyists Porphyry and Plotinus plagiarized other, much older ideas; they were influenced by material they admit (and must be) older. That's what is mostr definitely implied, in fact, by the oldest witness here. Porphyry/Plotinus is not the origin but the issue.
On a more general point; there is genuine uncertainty as to whether the Platonic Sethian texts are a generation earlier than Plotinus or a generation later. However, there is IMO little doubt that these works are later than the (pseudo)-Chaldean Oracles which were produced in the reign of Marcus Aurelius. I.E. these works may be older than Plotinus or Porphyry but they are not much older.
Andrew Criddle
Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??
H. Lewy {pp.3-4} thought the two Juliani, father and son, co-authored The Chaldean Oracles, c.150 AD. That's three generations before Plotinus taught, and three generations before Porphyry of Tyre likewise: whether the material of the 'Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster' was older still seems more likely than not.
I'm curious to know exactly which parts of the NHL you insist are definitively 'Plotinus and no other'. Ammonius Saccas (student in Alexandria c.200 AD) would have taught material 25-50 years older, but again we're taking credit away from Plotinus, admitting other (unknown) philosophers' influence 2-3 generations older. Plotinus is a sound-alike, not a source.
I'm curious to know exactly which parts of the NHL you insist are definitively 'Plotinus and no other'. Ammonius Saccas (student in Alexandria c.200 AD) would have taught material 25-50 years older, but again we're taking credit away from Plotinus, admitting other (unknown) philosophers' influence 2-3 generations older. Plotinus is a sound-alike, not a source.
Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??
Andrew Criddle is probably the most informed person about Neo-Platonism on this forum. I would not write off AC's opinion quite so quickly. We can agree to disagree without value judgements.billd89 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:32 pm o.k., you have the right to that opinion.
Back on topic:I see that Iamblichus claims Porphyry read Hermetic books: what evidence is there of that? (Not Iamblichus' Responses.) Again, Iamblichus would insist there is a Porphyry dialogue w/ against Hermeticism, but I'm not seeing it.
Much of what Andrew Criddle imagines Porphyry's may be recycled Post-Hermetic philosophy, +150 years after Poimandres.
While Neo-Platonism is generally believed to be a Middle Platonic reaction to the Chaldean Oracles, a mix of several platonic & non-platonic philosophical traditions originating in Mesopotamia, and probably entirely made up. However, it was a "revealed" religion, which had been a problem for Middle-Platonism, and may have been in reaction to Christianity's claims. Unfortunately, the Chaldean oracles survive only in fragments. My exposure to them was G R S mead's translation of the fragments of The Chaldean Oracles in 2 volumes (1908). I'm sure there is something newer.
As for Hermetic tractates, I have read the 4 volume edition of Hermetica (4 vols 1924-1936), with edited Greek & Latin text and English Translation, by Walter Scott (not "Sir" W. S.).
The problem with these volumes is that Scott took some pretty serious liberties WRT textual emendations, so some folks do not like his edition at all. Because they were published after 1925 they are still under copyright here in the US of A. There might be online versions of parts of them, but I don't think you can download them as PDFs (well, at least not legally). Personally I found it interesting, but it was very difficult to follow his emendations (I think he brackets what he thinks is in the wrong place, and then double brackets the same text where he thinks it should have been "originally"). Aaaarrrrgggghhhh! The English translation is apparently his emended text, with very few notes to show what was conjecture.
Anyhow, I have read through all 4 volumes pretty closely, and cannot really identify any distinctly "Christian" (or parallel) content, other than parallel ideas. Genesis maybe, so the author(s) may have picked up on Jewish speculations, but I did not see any connection to specific Gnostic doctrines.
That's just me. Someday, if I can find a good source for the greek hermetica (not the alchemical hermetica) and for the Greek fragments of the Chaldean Oracles, I might try to untangle the truth from fiction in one of my side by side Greek-English or Latin-English tables.
Re: Scott's Hermetica
Three vols. were out of copyright for several years yet still inaccessible; I contacted GoogleBooks directly, filed appeals, etc. so they are no longer 'embargoed' or whatever they call it; it was mentioned here.DCHindley wrote: ↑Sun Jul 23, 2023 3:41 pmAs for Hermetic tractates, I have read the 4 volume edition of Hermetica (4 vols 1924-1936), with edited Greek & Latin text and English Translation, by Walter Scott (not "Sir" W. S.).
... Because they were published after 1925 they are still under copyright here in the US of A. There might be online versions of parts of them, but I don't think you can download them as PDFs (well, at least not legally).
I prefer Internet Archive, anyway:
Vol.1
Vol.2
Vol.3
Vol.4 is still in limbo.
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Leucius Charinus
- Posts: 2842
- Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
- Location: memoriae damnatio
Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??
From another thread:
Possible Historical Allusions in the Nag Hammadi Library
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10013
(6) "The All" as a technical term in the NHL appears to follow Plotinus' use in the Enneads
The term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus (MacKenna translation). The term is also plastered throughout many texts of the Nag Hammadi Library. To what extent might this indicate that the authors of the texts in the NHL which use the term "The All" were familiar with the Enneads of Plotinus? For instance the term occurs 22 times in the The Gospel of Truth.
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
"the All" as a "technical term"
For example some translators refer to "the All" as a "technical term".
Gospel of Thomas - BLATZ (67)
Jesus said: He who knows the all, (but) fails (to know) himself, misses everything.
The All is also a primary technical term used by Plotinus.
As mentioned above, the term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus.
The Final Words of Plotinus
“Strive to bring back
the god in yourselves
to the God in the All”
(Life of Plotinus 2).
The All in the NHL
There appears to be a significant number of texts in the NHL that employ this term in a systematic manner. I'm not a translator but I'd say Thomas' idea about "The All" are not unique in Thomas. My question would be to ask how many of these texts were written after Porphyry published the Enneads of Plotinus. Plotinus had received imperial patronage in the later 3rd century. It follows that his literature would have been well circulated by the time of the Nicene Council. By that time the Academy of Plato at Alexandria was well represented by the neo Platonists.
I'd comment that the academy of Platonists were opposed to the "academy" of Christians. For example: See the fragments of Philip of Side on the Nicene Council.
https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/phil ... gments.htm
https://cse.google.com/cse?cof=LW%3A467 ... 2998157j11
"THE ALL"
About 78 results (0.48 seconds)
22 times in
The Gospel of Truth (Attridge & MacRae Translation) - The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › gostruth
But it is in it that I shall come to be, and (it is fitting) to be concerned at all times with the Father of the all, and the true brothers, those upon whom ...
The Apocryphon of John - Frederik Wisse - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn
This is the first power which was before all of them (and) which came forth from his mind, She is the forethought of the All - her light shines like his ...
Trimorphic Protennoia - John D. Turner, Annotated Edition - The ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › trimorph-JDT
I am the one who gradually put forth the All by my Thought. It is I who am laden with the Voice. It is through me that Gnosis comes forth. dwell in the ...
The Book of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library - John D. Turner ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › bookt-jdt
For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all.
On the Origin of the World - Bethge and Layton - The Nag Hammadi ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › origin
The holy water, since it vivifies the all, purifies it. Out of that first blood Eros appeared, being androgynous. His masculinity is Himireris, ...
Gospel of Thomas - Patterson & Robinson Translation -- Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › gth_pat_rob
(4) And he will be king over the All." (3) Jesus says: (1) "If those who lead you say to you: 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky!' then the birds of the sky ...
Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › gthlamb
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." (3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in ...
A Valentinian Exposition -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › valex
Now this is the Root of the All and Monad without any one before him. Now the second spring exists in silence and speaks with him alone. And the Fourth ...
The Gospel of Truth (Grant Translation) - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › got
You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought. This ignorance of the Father brought about ...
Melchizedek -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › melchiz
holy disciples. And the Savior will reveal to them the world that gives life to the All. But those in the heavens spoke many words, together with those on ...
The Book of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library - John D. Turner ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › allogenes-jdt
Youel: The Barbelo Aeon. And then again, O my son Messos, the all-glorious one, Youel spoke to me; she appeared [to] me and ...
The Dialogue of the Savior -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › dialog
The Lord said, "When the Father established the cosmos for himself, he left much over from the Mother of the All. Therefore, he speaks and he acts.".
The Thought of Norea -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › nore
... behold the Pleroma, and she will not be in deficiency, for she has the four holy helpers who intercede on her behalf with the Father of the All, Adamas.
Zostrianos -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › zostr
(About) the All and the all-perfect race and the one who is higher than perfect and blessed. The self-begotten Kalyptos pre-exists because he is an origin ...
Marsanes - John Turner - Scholar's Translation - The Nag Hammadi ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › marsanes-jdt
8 The one who is 9 [substantial (Autogenes)] examines 10 [the all (the Barbelo Aeon)] and is 11 [the all and] resembles 12 [the all].
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth - Bullard & Gibbons - The ...
gnosis.org › naghamm
And she did not ask anything from the All, nor from the greatness of the Assembly, nor from the Pleroma. Since she was first, she came forth to prepare ...
The Hypostasis of the Archons - trans. Bentley Layton - The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › hypostas
From that day, the snake came to be under the curse of the authorities; until the all-powerful man was to come, that curse fell upon the snake.
Marsanes -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › marsanes
But let none of us be distressed and think in his heart that the great Father [...]. For he looks upon the All and takes care of them all. And he has shown to ...
The Tripartite Tractate -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › tripart
... is Father of the All, out of his laboring for those who exist, having sown into their thought that they might seek after him. The abundance of their [.
The Interpretation of Knowledge -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › intpr
He has a generous nature, since the Son of God dwells in him. And whenever he acquires the All, whatever he possesses will <be dissolved> in the fire because it ...
The Testimony of Truth -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › testruth
This is the perfect life, that man know himself by means of the All. Do not expect, therefore, the carnal resurrection, which is destruction; and they are ...
Zostrianos - John Turner - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › zostr-jdt
Now as for the Entirety, both the all-perfect 3 kind and that which is higher than perfect 4 and blessed: The 5 self-generated Kalyptos 6 is a pre-existent ...
The Treatise on the Resurrection - Malcolm Peel- The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › res
But the All is what is encompassed. It has not come into being; it was existing." So, never doubt concerning the resurrection, my son Rheginos!
The Apocryphon of John - Short Version - Translated by Waldstein ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn-short
That one is the one whom the invisible Spirit appointed as god over the All, the true god. It gave to him all authority and It caused the truth which is in It ...
The Apocryphon of John - Long Version - Translated by Waldstein ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn-long
For because of the Word, Christ the divine Autogenes created the All. Eternal Life with Will, and Mind with Foreknowledge stood. They glorified the invisible ...
The Gospel of Thomas: Oxyrhynchus Fragments
gnosis.org › naghamm › thomas_poxy
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." Saying 3 (pOxy. 654.9-21). J[esus] said, "[If] those pulling you [say to ...
Possible Historical Allusions in the Nag Hammadi Library
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10013
(6) "The All" as a technical term in the NHL appears to follow Plotinus' use in the Enneads
The term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus (MacKenna translation). The term is also plastered throughout many texts of the Nag Hammadi Library. To what extent might this indicate that the authors of the texts in the NHL which use the term "The All" were familiar with the Enneads of Plotinus? For instance the term occurs 22 times in the The Gospel of Truth.
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
"the All" as a "technical term"
For example some translators refer to "the All" as a "technical term".
Gospel of Thomas - BLATZ (67)
Jesus said: He who knows the all, (but) fails (to know) himself, misses everything.
- Funk and Hoover write: "This saying is as difficult to translate as it is to understand. The first clause may refer simply to one who is very knowledgeable - a know-it-all. In this case, the saying recalls the famous dictum of Socrates, 'Know thyself.' However, the word for 'all' is also a technical term in gnostic circles and refers to the whole of cosmic reality; it is usually translated as 'All,' with a capital A. Elsewhere in Thomas this term seems to carry this technical sense (note 2:4 and 77:1). The Fellows took the term here to be technical gnostic language also. They gave it a black designation as the result. Thomas 70 is a related saying." (The Five Gospels, p. 512)
Gerd Ludemann gives the translation, "Jesus said, 'Whoever knows the All (but) is deficient in himself is deficient in everything.'" Ludemann writes: "The 'All' is a technical term which relates to the universe, embracing the earth and the cosmos (cf. 2.4; 77.1). 'Know' takes up the same expression from 65.4, 7. According to Thomas, knowledge of the All and self-knowledge condition each other. The reason lies in the consubstantiality of the All with the Gnostic self. Thus according to Logion 77 Jesus is the light and at the same time the All. Whoever knows himself is Christ and himself becoems a person of light." (Jesus After 2000 Years, p. 624)
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... mas67.html
The All is also a primary technical term used by Plotinus.
As mentioned above, the term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus.
The Final Words of Plotinus
“Strive to bring back
the god in yourselves
to the God in the All”
(Life of Plotinus 2).
The All in the NHL
There appears to be a significant number of texts in the NHL that employ this term in a systematic manner. I'm not a translator but I'd say Thomas' idea about "The All" are not unique in Thomas. My question would be to ask how many of these texts were written after Porphyry published the Enneads of Plotinus. Plotinus had received imperial patronage in the later 3rd century. It follows that his literature would have been well circulated by the time of the Nicene Council. By that time the Academy of Plato at Alexandria was well represented by the neo Platonists.
I'd comment that the academy of Platonists were opposed to the "academy" of Christians. For example: See the fragments of Philip of Side on the Nicene Council.
https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/phil ... gments.htm
https://cse.google.com/cse?cof=LW%3A467 ... 2998157j11
"THE ALL"
About 78 results (0.48 seconds)
22 times in
The Gospel of Truth (Attridge & MacRae Translation) - The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › gostruth
But it is in it that I shall come to be, and (it is fitting) to be concerned at all times with the Father of the all, and the true brothers, those upon whom ...
The Apocryphon of John - Frederik Wisse - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn
This is the first power which was before all of them (and) which came forth from his mind, She is the forethought of the All - her light shines like his ...
Trimorphic Protennoia - John D. Turner, Annotated Edition - The ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › trimorph-JDT
I am the one who gradually put forth the All by my Thought. It is I who am laden with the Voice. It is through me that Gnosis comes forth. dwell in the ...
The Book of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library - John D. Turner ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › bookt-jdt
For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all.
On the Origin of the World - Bethge and Layton - The Nag Hammadi ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › origin
The holy water, since it vivifies the all, purifies it. Out of that first blood Eros appeared, being androgynous. His masculinity is Himireris, ...
Gospel of Thomas - Patterson & Robinson Translation -- Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › gth_pat_rob
(4) And he will be king over the All." (3) Jesus says: (1) "If those who lead you say to you: 'Look, the kingdom is in the sky!' then the birds of the sky ...
Gospel of Thomas (Lambdin Translation) -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › gthlamb
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." (3) Jesus said, "If those who lead you say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in ...
A Valentinian Exposition -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › valex
Now this is the Root of the All and Monad without any one before him. Now the second spring exists in silence and speaks with him alone. And the Fourth ...
The Gospel of Truth (Grant Translation) - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › got
You see, the All had been inside of him, that illimitable, inconceivable one, who is better than every thought. This ignorance of the Father brought about ...
Melchizedek -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › melchiz
holy disciples. And the Savior will reveal to them the world that gives life to the All. But those in the heavens spoke many words, together with those on ...
The Book of Thomas - The Nag Hammadi Library - John D. Turner ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › allogenes-jdt
Youel: The Barbelo Aeon. And then again, O my son Messos, the all-glorious one, Youel spoke to me; she appeared [to] me and ...
The Dialogue of the Savior -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › dialog
The Lord said, "When the Father established the cosmos for himself, he left much over from the Mother of the All. Therefore, he speaks and he acts.".
The Thought of Norea -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › nore
... behold the Pleroma, and she will not be in deficiency, for she has the four holy helpers who intercede on her behalf with the Father of the All, Adamas.
Zostrianos -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › zostr
(About) the All and the all-perfect race and the one who is higher than perfect and blessed. The self-begotten Kalyptos pre-exists because he is an origin ...
Marsanes - John Turner - Scholar's Translation - The Nag Hammadi ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › marsanes-jdt
8 The one who is 9 [substantial (Autogenes)] examines 10 [the all (the Barbelo Aeon)] and is 11 [the all and] resembles 12 [the all].
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth - Bullard & Gibbons - The ...
gnosis.org › naghamm
And she did not ask anything from the All, nor from the greatness of the Assembly, nor from the Pleroma. Since she was first, she came forth to prepare ...
The Hypostasis of the Archons - trans. Bentley Layton - The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › hypostas
From that day, the snake came to be under the curse of the authorities; until the all-powerful man was to come, that curse fell upon the snake.
Marsanes -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › marsanes
But let none of us be distressed and think in his heart that the great Father [...]. For he looks upon the All and takes care of them all. And he has shown to ...
The Tripartite Tractate -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › tripart
... is Father of the All, out of his laboring for those who exist, having sown into their thought that they might seek after him. The abundance of their [.
The Interpretation of Knowledge -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › intpr
He has a generous nature, since the Son of God dwells in him. And whenever he acquires the All, whatever he possesses will <be dissolved> in the fire because it ...
The Testimony of Truth -- The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › testruth
This is the perfect life, that man know himself by means of the All. Do not expect, therefore, the carnal resurrection, which is destruction; and they are ...
Zostrianos - John Turner - The Nag Hammadi Library
gnosis.org › naghamm › zostr-jdt
Now as for the Entirety, both the all-perfect 3 kind and that which is higher than perfect 4 and blessed: The 5 self-generated Kalyptos 6 is a pre-existent ...
The Treatise on the Resurrection - Malcolm Peel- The Nag ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › res
But the All is what is encompassed. It has not come into being; it was existing." So, never doubt concerning the resurrection, my son Rheginos!
The Apocryphon of John - Short Version - Translated by Waldstein ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn-short
That one is the one whom the invisible Spirit appointed as god over the All, the true god. It gave to him all authority and It caused the truth which is in It ...
The Apocryphon of John - Long Version - Translated by Waldstein ...
gnosis.org › naghamm › apocjn-long
For because of the Word, Christ the divine Autogenes created the All. Eternal Life with Will, and Mind with Foreknowledge stood. They glorified the invisible ...
The Gospel of Thomas: Oxyrhynchus Fragments
gnosis.org › naghamm › thomas_poxy
When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All." Saying 3 (pOxy. 654.9-21). J[esus] said, "[If] those pulling you [say to ...
Re: Aelius Aristides
Aelius Aristides was very carefully studied by the Edelsteins c.1934-40 (they finally published in 1945); AA wrote c.175 AD, a century after your supposed Apollonius lived -- again supposedly -- as Asklepios' greatest prophet (but strangely: unknown to AA).Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:14 pmWhen did your AA volumes get written? 1938? When was the inscription discovered?You haven't faced the truth; AA wrote volumes on Asklepios but nary a peep on his "greatest prophet" who would have lived a century before? Hmmm, doubt that.Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Sat Jul 22, 2023 9:23 pmAmmianus Marcellinus a most reliable historical guide in his "Res Gestae" twice mentions Apollonius.
A single 4th C AD inscription to semi-fictional then-largely mythic character (Apollonius) of the 1st C isn't very interesting to me. But the 4th C. Jesus inscription would be just as, if not much more, credible with all the papyri evidence. So no, you haven't persuaded anyone here, either.
Re: "The All"
Rubbish. "The All" does not originate in The Enneads; that is the nonsensical make-believe which Late Daters suggest and lead you to conclude: that Plotinus is THE SOURCE rather than just a Very Late Copyist. I am grateful for what Very Late Copyists have preserved, but let us not be deceived: Followers, not Originators.Leucius Charinus wrote: ↑Mon Jul 24, 2023 8:23 pm From another thread:
Possible Historical Allusions in the Nag Hammadi Library
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10013
(6) "The All" as a technical term in the NHL appears to follow Plotinus' use in the Enneads
The term "the All" is used more than 200 times in the Enneads of Plotinus (MacKenna translation). The term is also plastered throughout many texts of the Nag Hammadi Library. To what extent might this indicate that the authors of the texts in the NHL which use the term "The All" were familiar with the Enneads of Plotinus? For instance the term occurs 22 times in the The Gospel of Truth.
Does anyone have an opinion on this?
"The All" turns up in lots of places loooooong before Plotinus.
Philo Judaeus, for example:
Legum Allegoriarum 3.29: δυοῖν γὰρ ὄντων τοῦ τε τῶν ὅλων νοῦ, ὅς ἐστι θεός ..... "All-Mind" "Mind of the All"
De Ebrietate 30: τῶν ὅλων πάνθ ̓ ὅσα .... Mother and Nurse of the All.
Conf. 175, Mos. 2.24, Plant. 129, 135: Θεοῦ [...] ὁ τοῦ παντὸς Πατήρ ...... "of God […] the All-Father" "Father of the All"; also: ὁ πάντων πατήρ, ὁ πατήρ τοῦ παντός, etc.
There are examples from the Hermetica, if you dare look:
C.H. 1.27: καὶ διδαχθεὶς τοῦ παντὸς τὴν φύσιν "and taught me the nature of The All" "All-Nature"
...
And early Xian writings:
Gospel of Thomas 67: "Jesus said, "If one who knows the All still feels a personal deficiency, he is completely deficient."" What was this, in the ancient Greek?
... and on and on ...