Pontius Pilate

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arnoldo
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Pontius Pilate

Post by arnoldo » Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:23 pm

AN UNPUBLISHED COIN OF PONTIUS PILATEAND SOME SPECULATIONS ABOUT HIS CAREER DB Saddington, URD Vogel - Akroterion, 2014 - akroterion.journals.ac.za

Interesting article on Pontius Pilate which I came across to determine if he had any reason to journey to Jerusalem at any time. Other than Josephus, Philo seems to be the only other significant source of information apart from any possible archaelogical artificats. From the article, the attachment below provides an onomastic analysis of Pilate's name.
pontiuspilate.PNG
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http://akroterion.journals.ac.za/pub/ar ... le/193/264

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arnoldo
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by arnoldo » Sun Jul 30, 2017 9:30 am

rsz_pilate_recon.jpg
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Roger Pearse makes note that that the title for Pilate on the Pilate Stone is "Prefect of Judaea" whereas Josephus gave Pilate the title " Procurator."
If we accept this, we would get us something like “To the Caesareans, the Tiberium Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judaea, ?? has given ??”, I.e. Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judaea, has given this Temple of Tiberius to the people of Caesarea.

Sherwin-White remarked that this confirmed his own hypothesis as to the title that Pilate held. The title of Procurator was introduced by Claudius, and its use for Pilate by Tacitus and Josephus is perhaps simply a case of those authors using the contemporary title for a provincial governor, rather than one that had dropped out of use.
http://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/tag/pilate-stone/


neilgodfrey
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by neilgodfrey » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm

Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.

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Peter Kirby
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by Peter Kirby » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm

neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm
Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown

neilgodfrey
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by neilgodfrey » Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:13 am

Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm
neilgodfrey wrote:
Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:49 pm
Carrier's comment on the procurator-prefect issue re Pilate in On the Historicity of Jesus, p. 345
However, we must dismiss the argument that Tacitus can’t have been citing government records because he gets the office of Pilate wrong, mis-identifying him as a procurator when in fact he was a prefect, because Pilate was both a procurator and a prefect (as most equestrian governors were), and Tacitus had Particular rhetorical reasons to prefer mentioning the procuratorial office in a passage like this (it was more embarrassing, and more appalling, to be executed by a mere business manager). See Carrier, Hitler Homer Bible Christ, pp. 103-40.
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
I don't have what you are asking for. My "issue" with C's brief explanation was that it appeared to indicate no evidence-based argument to support the assertion it made (that the author referenced the "business" title to further belittle the victim crucified) and hence comes across to me as ad hoc.

iskander
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by iskander » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:10 am

arnoldo, Pilate was probably a military prefect and later in his career a governor (procurator).
Augustus turned therefore to the equestrian Order and by employing its members in the public service , from which they had largely been excluded during the Republic ...After the qualifying military service ( perhaps as praefectus of an auxiliary cohort).. Augustus used them as financial agents ( procurators) in his provinces , and also as governors (procurators) of the less important imperial provinces.
From the Gracchi to Nero
H, H, Scullard
University Paperbacks, 1959, pg. 234
Methuen & Co Ltd
London WC2

For many members of the equestrian Order the rank of praefectus would have been a stepping stone to the post of procurator . ( e, g, Coronel before General) .
Last edited by iskander on Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Pontius Pilate

Post by Ben C. Smith » Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:24 am

neilgodfrey wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:13 am
I don't have what you are asking for. My "issue" with C's brief explanation was that it appeared to indicate no evidence-based argument to support the assertion it made (that the author referenced the "business" title to further belittle the victim crucified) and hence comes across to me as ad hoc.
I believe Carrier's brief explanation was referring back to his 2011 paper, Herod the Procurator, which is available online: http://www.richardcarrier.info/HerodSyrianGovernor.pdf.
Peter Kirby wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm
Does anybody have the summary version of the argument in favor of believing that Pilate would have had the dual office of prefect and procurator? Honestly I've read Carrier's essay a couple times in the past, but the understanding (of what evinces the conclusion) shimmers before my eyes and evaporates shortly after (and I don't even remember why that is...). Does anybody understand the "consensus" and Carrier's position and have the ability to summarize the reasoning?
I have experienced this same phenomenon with regard to his paper. I have read it once and skimmed it at least once more, but I cannot seem to retain the argument in my memory for some reason.
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