Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

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Gnostic Bishop
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:41 pm
Gnostic Bishop wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 1:59 pm
Nasruddin wrote: Sun Nov 05, 2017 4:14 am You posit your 6 Commandments against the Hebrew 10 Commandments, but also say "The main complaints I see are that Yahweh’s commandments have created a Christian ideology that denies gays and women equality."

Can you explain how the 10 Commandents lead you to that position?
For the inequality of women, it is obvious since in the not coveting commandment, women are mentioned with other possessions. This causes Christians to value souls with different values and I think this leads to the ease with which Christians denigrate and discriminate against gays.

The gay part is an extrapolation of the inequality that Christians allow themselves with women and not a direct result of any commandment.

Christians took the same inequality to advocate for slavery.

Once you create an inequality category, it becomes easier to add those you do not like to it.

Regards
DL
I see your point. Jesus omitted that commandment in Matthew 19:18-19. Christian discrimination against gays, as you say, is not the fault of the Commandments, but comes from other Biblical passages.
Sure, but like any law, there is always a logic or reason trail that does not necessarily appear in the law when it is written. Commandments are laws and the discrimination and inequality in Christianity begins in the commandment that places women as part of a man's possessions.

The initial law was poorly written and in secular law, such laws are altered or thrown out in fairly short order.

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DL
Nasruddin
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Nasruddin »

You have put the choice of punishment upon the vagaries of others, rather than upon the law. Reciprocity is no longer based upon the crime, but upon the opinion and emotions of those involved.

How do you distinguish between repentance and fear? How do you distinguish between mercy and favouritism? How do you distinguish between closure and vengeance? Your Commandments are open to at least the same amount of opinion and emotion (a.k.a. discrimination and prejudice) than the 10 Commandments are.
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

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Nasruddin wrote: Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:43 am
You have put the choice of punishment upon the vagaries of others, rather than upon the law. Reciprocity is no longer based upon the crime, but upon the opinion and emotions of those involved.
Those vagaries are acceptable to a judge. Have you heard of victim reports?

Why should the tax payer keep a perpetrator in an expensive jail when the victim might think that his stay there for longer than what he or she thinks is not required for the closure that they seek?
How do you distinguish between repentance and fear?
I need not create a new definition for those words as the dictionary shows a clear definition for both, and they are not synonymous.
How do you distinguish between mercy and favouritism?
I need not. The victim is the one doing so. forgiveness is theirs to give by their own measure.
How do you distinguish between closure and vengeance?
I need not. The victim is the one doing so. closure is theirs to be determined by their own measure.
Your Commandments are open to at least the same amount of opinion and emotion (a.k.a. discrimination and prejudice) than the 10 Commandments are.
Indeed.
That is part of their beauty and efficacy as the victims views are more important than any commandment.

Regards
DL
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Nasruddin »

So the victim alone decides on the punishment, based upon how the crime affected them and how the punishment will affect the perpetrator? There is no intermediary judge?
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Sat Nov 11, 2017 10:22 am So the victim alone decides on the punishment, based upon how the crime affected them and how the punishment will affect the perpetrator? There is no intermediary judge?
Not the victim alone.

Sure there is a judge with his mandated high punishment or low punishment levels.

Do not forget that the charge is set by the crown for the victim more than for themselves.

Without a victim and their testimony, most charges could not be laid.

Let me give you an example of what I mean.

If a thief steal my last dollar and causes me and my family to go hungry, I might need more for closure than if that thief stole the same amount from a rich man whose lifestyle was not effected at all from the theft.

See the difference?

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DL
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Nasruddin »

Don't layer the issue with unnecessary emotion. The thief stole the money from the you. The family is not the thief's responsibility. Whatever you might have intended to do with the money is nothing to do with the crime. What if you had wanted the money to donate to a telly evangelist to pray to God for food, or for you to buy a train ticket to run away from the family, or for you to go purchase alcohol or drugs? Your family might still go hungry. You could still claim outrage that it is the thief's fault that the family is hungry, but that would just be you shirking your commitments.

When a thief steals money from a rich man, it is the same crime. The rich man might shrug his shoulders and say "Hey, I have lots of money, what do I care", or he might say "I worked hard all my life for that money. What gave him the right to take it?" The rich man might be a regular donor to a number of charities, but the theft causes him to reconsider and decide he's not going to donate any more if people are just going to steal from him. Is the thief responsible for the rich man's actions, or is the rich man making his own choices? Or the rich man might never have donated money before, but the theft makes him realise how much poorer other people are and so he starts to give money to charity. Is the thief responsible for the donations?

The commandment "Thou shalt not steal" seems to need no replacing.
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

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Nasruddin wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 2:44 am Don't layer the issue with unnecessary emotion. The thief stole the money from the you. The family is not the thief's responsibility. Whatever you might have intended to do with the money is nothing to do with the crime. What if you had wanted the money to donate to a telly evangelist to pray to God for food, or for you to buy a train ticket to run away from the family, or for you to go purchase alcohol or drugs? Your family might still go hungry. You could still claim outrage that it is the thief's fault that the family is hungry, but that would just be you shirking your commitments.

When a thief steals money from a rich man, it is the same crime. The rich man might shrug his shoulders and say "Hey, I have lots of money, what do I care", or he might say "I worked hard all my life for that money. What gave him the right to take it?" The rich man might be a regular donor to a number of charities, but the theft causes him to reconsider and decide he's not going to donate any more if people are just going to steal from him. Is the thief responsible for the rich man's actions, or is the rich man making his own choices? Or the rich man might never have donated money before, but the theft makes him realise how much poorer other people are and so he starts to give money to charity. Is the thief responsible for the donations?

The commandment "Thou shalt not steal" seems to need no replacing.
True that the commandment is clear and proper.

The punishment is not given though, which makes it a poorly written law.

We, the victims are left to decide what the penalty or conditions to be met before forgiveness is granted.

We have to engage the emotions you say are not necessary if we are to do unto others which is the first doable commandment that Jesus gave.

That is why victim statements are used in court.

Can you know what to do unto others without using or gaging your emotions when being stolen from?

I doubt it, because it is our emotional state, in most cases, that make us decide to lay a charge or not or what the penalty looks like. Emotions are necessary.

Regards
DL
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Nasruddin »

The punishment according to Mosaic Law is reciprocity to a greater amount than that stolen. Its a very prescribed materially-based compensation system. No need to get caught up in emotional knots about who feels what and whether one person's emotions are to be placed above another's.
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Re: Which commandments do you think are superior; Yahweh’s or Gnostic Christianity’s?

Post by Gnostic Bishop »

Nasruddin wrote: Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:51 am The punishment according to Mosaic Law is reciprocity to a greater amount than that stolen. Its a very prescribed materially-based compensation system. No need to get caught up in emotional knots about who feels what and whether one person's emotions are to be placed above another's.
Ghanhdi.
An eye for an eye only ends up making the whole world blind .

Mosaic law also calls for stoning and killing for a lot less than killing.

The state not religions should be telling us how to feel or how a sin or crime against us has effected us.

Take the victim and how he thinks and fells about things and you take justice out of the system.

That was and is the Jewish view of forgiveness.

This speaks of the benefits of forgiveness and closure from the victim you seem to want to ignore.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... veness.htm

Regards
DL
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