Search found 2321 matches
- Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:17 pm
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: The claim "The doctrine is secret" is an accusation only if the public doctrine is DENIED
- Replies: 16
- Views: 358
Re: The claim "The doctrine is secret" is an accusation only if the public doctrine is DENIED
The pagan Caecilius accuses Christians of being secretive about their rites But the actions of the cult are not the object of the accusation. Celsus accuses "often" the Christian doctrine of being secret. Which virtually put in doubt the his own certainty about the official version (earth...
- Sat Mar 30, 2024 2:46 pm
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: The claim "The doctrine is secret" is an accusation only if the public doctrine is DENIED
- Replies: 16
- Views: 358
Re: The claim "The doctrine is secret" is an accusation only if the public doctrine is DENIED
Minucius Felix's "Octavian" (my favorite piece of ancient writing!) also lays out the pagan accusations against the secrecy of Christians and their doctrine. The pagan Caecilius accuses Christians of being secretive about their rites which means they must be ashamed of them: https://www.ea...
- Sat Mar 30, 2024 9:59 am
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: The claim "The doctrine is secret" is an accusation only if the public doctrine is DENIED
- Replies: 16
- Views: 358
Re: The claim "The doctrine is secret" is an accusation only if the public doctrine is DENIED
Where Celsus is very close to put implicitly in doubt the historicity of Jesus is when he raises the accusation that 'the doctrine is secret' . The only way a such claim can be interpreted as an accusation , is that the secret belief is radically different from the public belief, to the point of be...
- Fri Mar 29, 2024 12:35 pm
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
- Replies: 50
- Views: 10478
Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
Yes, Celsus makes some claim about the "real" biography of Jesus, but it is evident that these supposed "real facts" about Jesus are themselves just alternative imaginings derived from the Gospels. "Let us imagine what a Jew- let alone a philosopher- might say to Jesus: 'Is...
- Thu Mar 28, 2024 6:34 pm
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
- Replies: 50
- Views: 10478
Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
Is this not also completely consistent with the claim made in 2 John 1:7? It appears to me that the claim made in 2 John 1:7 is consistent with both views. How do we rule one out and one in? Because we have examples of early people who seemed to have believed that there was a Jesus who was there bu...
- Thu Mar 28, 2024 1:52 am
- Forum: Academic Discussion
- Topic: According to Irenaeus, who were the Gnostics?
- Replies: 26
- Views: 5707
Re: According to Irenaeus, who were the Gnostics?
And if 'gnostic' is a term that has some meaning, beyond just being associated with heretics, then those that are not clearly 'gnostic' in Irenaeus may not fall into the same doctrine for Irenaeus as those that are called 'gnostic.' This then could open the way to allowing us to consider non-'gnost...
- Thu Mar 28, 2024 12:18 am
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
- Replies: 50
- Views: 10478
Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
However what about people who may have asserted that Jesus Christ was a fictional character? That is, that in theory there were (other) people who asserted Jesus Christ did not come in the flesh because he was fictional being - that the NT was a fiction story. If such people had a time machine, the...
- Wed Mar 27, 2024 9:25 pm
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
- Replies: 50
- Views: 10478
Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
Are you contending that these people thought that the figure of IS XS appeared in history as a god, or a deity, or a spirit, or a mythological being rather than a historical "fleshy" human being? That's right. So if Marcion, for example, had a time machine, he'd have thought he could go b...
- Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:58 pm
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: What is implied if Jesus' historicity was not doubted?
- Replies: 17
- Views: 5771
Re: What is implied if Jesus' historicity was not doubted?
Thanks, GakuseiDon, for giving an example showing that some ancient people did claim cases of non-existence. You're welcome. I think it's an important point to keep in mind, that there was a certain amount of skepticism about fantastic beliefs in ancient times. Origen also writes on this: http://ww...
- Wed Mar 27, 2024 12:49 am
- Forum: Christian Texts and History
- Topic: What is implied if Jesus' historicity was not doubted?
- Replies: 17
- Views: 5771
Re: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted?
GDon The title of your thread asked the question: Any pre-325 CE writings where Jesus' historicity was doubted? Your OP went on to define what you mean by 'historical Jesus'. ' 'By 'historical Jesus', I mean a figure living around 30 CE who inspired the Gospel stories, even if the Gospel stories th...