Biblical Criticism & History Forum - earlywritings.com

The thread started out, partly, by making an exclusion from consideration of the various alternative "X" locations (where Jesus was before entering) that can be proposed that are sub-lunar but not on the earth's surface (including Carrier/Doherty and their upper atmosphere / prince of the...

These relationships are evident: Both Josephus and Tacitus depend, at minimum, on similar traditions or sources regarding the Jewish war. (Doors opened, etc.) The Gospel narratives, Testament of Benjamin 9:2–3, and seemingly Habakkuk 12:10-13 are dependent on each other. (The temple veil torn, etc.)...

Josephus, Wars of the Jews 6.5.3 (none of this is placed so long ago as AD 30) Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation...

DCHindley wrote:Plato did not divide the sky into multiple heavens as far as I recall

Correct.

DCHindley wrote:IIRC, Plato did not consider any of his divine principles, ideas, and such, to reside in the material world,

Correct.

DCHindley wrote:or even be subject to time or space limitations.

I would assume so.

Part of it's just observing the way that the author chooses to express himself. When speaking of the heavenly Jerusalem, the heavenly city or country, the author doesn't say that it was "made," hands or no hands. Instead the author says that God "got ready," "prepared,"...

5. Then there is the placing the wool on the tree (Ὅτι δὲ τὸ ἔριον ἐπὶ τὸ ξύλον). This means that the kingdom of IC (βασιλεία Ἰησοῦ) is on the cross, and that they who set their hope on it shall live for ever (καὶ ὅτι οἱ ἐλπίζοντες ἐπ' αὐτὸν ζήσονται εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα). And why is there the wool and th...

Ben C. Smith wrote:

Peter Kirby wrote:"Heaven" (singular)

This can mean:
(a) The Starry Sky or the Container of the Visible Heavens [Hebrews 11:12, 12:26]
(b) The Divine Heaven (aka Platonic heaven) -- somewhat controversial [Hebrews 9:24, 12:25]

In 12.25, the word is plural.

Thanks. Fixed.

Reading some of these passages over again, I think I see at least three clues to the effect that there are "created" heaven(s) that are rather distinct from the heavenly place (confusingly, also called heaven ) spoken of elsewhere. They are of distinct natures, of distinct location, and ha...

Based on separating into different forms, I'm getting the impression that the author isn't entirely haphazard but also that no grammatical form has a single meaning. Only the context clarifies, but the adjective 'heavenly' does have a distinctly different nuance. Suggestions are tentative. "Hea...

From that other thread you started , Peter: This still doesn't bring us back to the τὸν δὲ ὑπερουράνιον τόπον concept mentioned earlier. One is reminded of Hebrews 7.26, in which Christ is exalted above the heavens. (Ephesians 4.10 says even more explicitly that he ascended above the heavens.) I su...