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by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 4:54 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

I'm not sure if the Ascents of James should be in both options though, even after all you've said, since James doesn't die in that account. In all the other accounts (in both of your options) James dies. If there was an oral tradition that James was beaten to death that started it all, why did the ...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 3:12 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

Are you claiming that there were never any oral traditions or Christian stories told about the death of James prior to Hegesippus? Good question, and I guess my answer is no I"m not saying that, since it was surely a big event for Christians (and I also think the James passage in Josephus is g...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:35 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

You're not interacting with what I wrote at all here. I pointed out the parallels in a much more detailed way already, and I already concluded that there is a literary relationship between them. It just seems simpler to suppose that Hegesippus was known to Clement and whoever wrote the Second Apoca...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:14 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion
Replies: 17
Views: 350

Re: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion

Ken Olson wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:00 pm Giuseppe is ready to accept that Basilides knew Luke as an obvious fact, but I am going to post the case for it here anyway.
I'm also ready to accept this, and I'm curious where we can go with it.
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:04 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

To be fair to you, John2, you're not the only one who gets this feeling here. Similar impressions are frequently noted in the literature. There's something to be said for the gravitational weight that the story in Hegesippus holds for some people. Hegesippus and/or Josephus is generally someone's fi...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:53 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

And the Second Apocalypse sounds like it's based on Hegesippus too. And they were there and found him standing beside the columns of the temple beside the mighty corner stone. And they decided to throw him down from the height, and they cast him down. And they [...] they [...]. They seized him and ...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:51 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:24 pm So for me there's only one story, that James was thrown down from the Temple and stoned and beaten to death
I have a different perspective here. It was explained in my posts.

I'm not sure how you think you've justified the conclusion (if you think you have) that there was only ever one story.
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:48 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

After taking another look at Clement ... I'm inclined to suspect that these two sources used Hegeisppus, since they both post-date Hegesippus I agree that Clement post-dates Hegesippus, and I'm just not sure whether Clement used Hegesippus or not. It's possible but not strongly indicated either way...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

... since they both post-date Hegesippus ... As to the date and place of composition, little can be said with certainty . Let's say that we accept this. It would imply that you're unable to use this as an argument for the direction of dependence (for the Second Apocalypse of James). Yet it doesn't ...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:39 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 600

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:24 pm I'm still not sure I understand the "Hegesippus combined two sources" idea.
It sounds like you (mostly) understand it, but it doesn't feel right to you because you're seeing (or "feeling") the account of Hegesippus when you read other non-Hegesippus accounts.