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by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 2:04 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 607

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

To be fair to you, John2, you're not the only one who gets this feeling here. Similar impressions are frequently noted in the literature. There's something to be said for the gravitational weight that the story in Hegesippus holds for some people. Hegesippus and/or Josephus is generally someone's fi...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:53 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 607

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

And the Second Apocalypse sounds like it's based on Hegesippus too. And they were there and found him standing beside the columns of the temple beside the mighty corner stone. And they decided to throw him down from the height, and they cast him down. And they [...] they [...]. They seized him and ...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:51 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 607

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:24 pm So for me there's only one story, that James was thrown down from the Temple and stoned and beaten to death
I have a different perspective here. It was explained in my posts.

I'm not sure how you think you've justified the conclusion (if you think you have) that there was only ever one story.
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:48 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 607

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

After taking another look at Clement ... I'm inclined to suspect that these two sources used Hegeisppus, since they both post-date Hegesippus I agree that Clement post-dates Hegesippus, and I'm just not sure whether Clement used Hegesippus or not. It's possible but not strongly indicated either way...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 607

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

... since they both post-date Hegesippus ... As to the date and place of composition, little can be said with certainty . Let's say that we accept this. It would imply that you're unable to use this as an argument for the direction of dependence (for the Second Apocalypse of James). Yet it doesn't ...
by Peter Kirby
Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:39 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom
Replies: 43
Views: 607

Re: The Legend of James the Just and His Martyrdom

John2 wrote: Wed Mar 27, 2024 1:24 pm I'm still not sure I understand the "Hegesippus combined two sources" idea.
It sounds like you (mostly) understand it, but it doesn't feel right to you because you're seeing (or "feeling") the account of Hegesippus when you read other non-Hegesippus accounts.
by Peter Kirby
Tue Mar 26, 2024 6:13 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Date of Marcion
Replies: 14
Views: 266

Re: The Date of Marcion

Agrippa Castor apparently wrote a very early refutation of Basilides: https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/201 ... basilides/
by Peter Kirby
Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:54 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Date of Marcion
Replies: 14
Views: 266

Re: The Date of Marcion

Okay, thanks.
by Peter Kirby
Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:29 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Date of Marcion
Replies: 14
Views: 266

Re: The Date of Marcion

Thank you for this post, Ken. It's an interesting point about Basilides using Luke.
Ken Olson wrote: Tue Mar 26, 2024 5:00 pm The date of the 15th year of Tiberius could, of course, come from Marcion’s Evangelion
In the phrase Marcion's Evangelion, what relationship is there between Marcion and Evangelion?
by Peter Kirby
Tue Mar 26, 2024 2:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The Date of Marcion
Replies: 14
Views: 266

Re: The Date of Marcion

The Anti-Marcionite Prologue appears to make Marcion contemporary with John and opposed by him: https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/anti_marcionite_prologues.htm The Gospel of John was revealed and given to the churches by John while still in the body, just as Papias of Hieropolis, the close disciple...