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by Ben C. Smith
Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:35 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: dating the birth stories?
Replies: 117
Views: 1241

Re: dating the birth stories?

I generally take care to say that Justin quotes from "something like" Matthew or Luke or whatever, precisely because I cannot be altogether certain about what the text looked like in his day. It is certainly the case that our extant gospels (even including the Gospel of Peter and the Infancy Gospel ...
by Ben C. Smith
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:48 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: dating the birth stories?
Replies: 117
Views: 1241

Re: dating the birth stories?

Everyone knows that Matthew and Luke drew from Mark, everyone agrees to that. But no one seems to mind that they both drew their own material Yet suddenly, when direction of dependency in other sources is discussed, it is the most natural and logical assumption that anyone drawing from a source tha...
by Ben C. Smith
Tue Feb 23, 2021 7:43 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: dating the birth stories?
Replies: 117
Views: 1241

Re: dating the birth stories?

Right. Otherwise we face the anomaly of either Matthew or Luke (or both) drawing heavily from James yet managing to avoid drawing the same materials from James. The choice is between (A) a natural conflation of Matthew and Luke by James and (B) some kind of weird conspiracy. You're making an observ...
by Ben C. Smith
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:58 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: dating the birth stories?
Replies: 117
Views: 1241

Re: dating the birth stories?

Secondly, this makes sense of Martyr's writings, and shows how obvious the "lost source" actually was. It was hiding in plain sight, as per usual with this stuff. There is little doubt that Justin Martyr had access to a text or tradition like the Infancy Gospel of James. But, if Matthew postdates J...
by Ben C. Smith
Tue Feb 23, 2021 6:39 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: dating the birth stories?
Replies: 117
Views: 1241

Re: dating the birth stories?

Ben i think saw it as a harmony of Matthew and Luke. Right. Otherwise we face the anomaly of either Matthew or Luke (or both) drawing heavily from James yet managing to avoid drawing the same materials from James. The choice is between (A) a natural conflation of Matthew and Luke by James and (B) s...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:33 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Did Papias exist?
Replies: 79
Views: 8614

Re: Did Papias exist?

Just curious where the smoking gun for a chronological ordering is found in the following sentence: ὃς πρὸς τὰς χρείας ἐποιεῖτο τὰς διδασκαλίας, ἀλλ' οὐχ ὥσπερ σύνταξιν τῶν κυριακῶν ποιούμενος λογίων, ὥστε οὐδὲν ἥμαρτεν Μάρκος οὕτως ἔνια γράψας ὡς ἀπεμνημόνευσεν. ἑνὸς γὰρ ἐποιήσατο πρόνοιαν, τοῦ μη...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:35 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Did Papias exist?
Replies: 79
Views: 8614

Re: Did Papias exist?

He put it in an orderly form Do you think the Greek can be more elastic to even suggest that Matthew used the more correct methodology (i.e. developing his exegesis according to 'prophesy realization')? That the gospel being 'more Jewish' in character (for lack of a better terminology) was the reas...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Feb 22, 2021 2:03 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Did Papias exist?
Replies: 79
Views: 8614

Re: Did Papias exist?

Rather, it seems to me, that Papias claims that his work is far superior to the Gospel of Mark and the Gospel of Matthew. The claim is, that while no one is to blame both Greek Gospels end up flawed. Mark did an excellent job but unfortunately Peter had not arranged the oracles in order, but adapte...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:58 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Did Papias exist?
Replies: 79
Views: 8614

Re: Did Papias exist?

I think it's compelling in the sense that Eusebius is writing a compendium and grabbing things willy nilly like Epiphanius. One thing that does not grab me yet from Stevens' argument is his treatment of Eusebius' source. He argues that this source was defending the apostolic origins of the gospels ...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:02 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Did Papias exist?
Replies: 79
Views: 8614

Re: Did Papias exist?

Secret Alias wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:53 am
I've been thinking about the arguments for Eusebius to have used only a summary of Papias. I don't think it's convincing. The passages sound certainly like he had the text in front of him.
I am still thinking it all through myself. Some elements of it are more convincing than others.