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by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 11:05 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion
Replies: 4
Views: 74

Re: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion

27. the example of Polycarp citing the Pastorals (which the Marcionites rejected) against the Marcionites: There are also those who heard from him that John, the disciple of the Lord, going to bathe at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaimin...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:59 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion
Replies: 4
Views: 74

Re: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion

The idea that Tertullian was so restrained that he took the time to argue from the canon of the heretics goes against everything about the self-centered-ness of ancient people. The rabbinic tradition is so narcissistic that it retells history as if everyone in antiquity was 'speaking' scripture: 26....
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 10:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion
Replies: 4
Views: 74

Re: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion

Examples that contemporary traditions argued against their opponents from their own canon of scriptures rather than that of their opponents: 22. When Christians argue against the Jews they argue from the LXX not the Hebrew text. 23. When Eznik argues against the Marcionites understanding of Jewish s...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:25 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion
Replies: 4
Views: 74

Why I Don't Believe the Church Fathers About Marcion

Here is the state of affairs in point form 1. Irenaeus says the fourfold gospel is part of a perfect canon that has to be read together in order to know the truth 2. Irenaeus says the heretics were so-called because the 'chose' to ignore the whole of the scriptures and picked only a smaller part whi...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:55 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon
Replies: 6
Views: 77

Re: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon

So Schelling asks - why should we believe Irenaeus? Why should we believe Tertullian? Why should we believe Epiphanius? Are these three independent witnesses for the Marcionite canon? No certainly not. So given the murkiness here there are only three possibilities: 1. Tertullian saw the canon and Ep...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:40 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon
Replies: 6
Views: 77

Re: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon

The problem with almost all our information about anything is hearsay evidence. Marcion stole the gospel of Luke. Most people don't believe that. But what do scholars do? They split the difference. 'Oh, let's say that Marcion didn't steal the gospel but just borrowed from Luke.' But why do we have t...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 6:22 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon
Replies: 6
Views: 77

Re: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon

The problem is that the Church Fathers were always treated like family members. When your grandfather tells you something you believe it more than you do when some strange old man tells you something else. We not only 'trust' Irenaeus, Tertullian, Epiphanius we built our understanding of history aro...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 4:29 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon
Replies: 6
Views: 77

Re: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon

ihr Eigenthümlich aber beweist, wie der Aenderungen und Weglassungenim Ganzen wenige sind und wie die letzteren meist so motivirt waren, daß sie auch ' Ihr Eigenthümliche« istdaß sie die Klagen über Marcionitische Verfälschungen nicht von wirklichen Varianten oder wirklicher Mangelhaftigkeit des Mar...
by Secret Alias
Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:53 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon
Replies: 6
Views: 77

Friedrich Schelling Dissertation de Marcione Paullinarum Epistolarum emendatore - No One Saw the Marcionite Canon

Friedrich Schelling notes Tertullian “ the Fathers, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Epiphanus, never saw Marcion's copy and that Tertullian in particular, set down as Marcion's falsifications, all the apparently suspicious readings and glosses which he found in his own copy and in some places, merely conje...