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by Ben C. Smith
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:58 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: New Testament -- which are the mythicist texts? Analysis of Carrier OHJ
Replies: 44
Views: 2425

Re: New Testament -- which are the mythicist texts? Analysis of Carrier OHJ

The gate may simply be the gate of the camp: http://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1484 . "Outside the gate" may mean no more than "outside the camp," with "outside the gate" being chosen simply to break up the monotony of repeating "outside the camp" three times in quick succession: He...
by Ben C. Smith
Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:00 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Papias
Replies: 11
Views: 502

Re: Papias

Papias in his second book says that John the Divine and James his brother were killed by the Jews. The aforesaid Papias stated on the authority of the daughters of Philip that Barsabas, who is also called Justus, when challenged by the unbelievers drank serpent’s poison in the name of the Lord, and...
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:51 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Papias
Replies: 11
Views: 502

Re: Papias

Peter Kirby wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 6:45 pm
The references that I can find put the date of this commentary on Revelation by Andrew of Caesarea as 611 CE (seventh century). But TextExcavation has it as "Century XIV" for reasons that aren't clear to me.
Nor to me. Just a silly mistake on the part of my past self, I would wager.
by Ben C. Smith
Mon Dec 10, 2018 10:20 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why Mark is called Mark? A suggestive hypothesis...
Replies: 5
Views: 332

Re: Why Mark is called Mark? A suggestive hypothesis...

The "evil generation" are the Jews, for Marcion. They want a "sign", a " Mark " ! This is either a new low for you or an embarrassingly early April Fools' Day joke. Etymology of mark : https://www.etymonline.com/word/mark , https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mark#English . Etymology of Marcus : https:/...
by Ben C. Smith
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:08 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 20
Views: 832

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Carrier has proven himself to be sloppy. I would not trust him on the details. frankly, the legend about Judas seems precisely the kind of things that may give occasion for Eusebius criticism of Papias mind as poor. It is the fact that Papias gave more importance to oral tradition (than the written...
by Ben C. Smith
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:26 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 20
Views: 832

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

This is what I think Vinzent gets wrong, according to the bit quoted above by MrMacSon: Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.9-10: 9 That Philip the apostle lived in Heirapolis together with his daughters has been made clear before. But as regards them let it be noted that Papias, their contemporary...
by Ben C. Smith
Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:19 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 20
Views: 832

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Yes, and I am saying that this line appears to be all Eusebius, zero Papias. Carrier says that Eusebius called Papias an "idiot" just because Papias reported these (indeed stupid and too much incredible to be believed even for an Eusebius) things about Judas. Also Ehrman argues the same thing, if I...
by Ben C. Smith
Sun Dec 09, 2018 8:34 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 20
Views: 832

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

I do not think that this story belongs to Papias. It is found in Eusebius, History of the Church 3.39.10, and it appears to be Eusebius' own expansion, from Acts, of what Papias had said about Justus. At least, I would have to see the argument for this bit being Papian in origin; the grammar as I s...
by Ben C. Smith
Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.
Replies: 20
Views: 832

Re: The drawbacks of overlooking oral tradition as an option.

Vinzent portrays Papias as anti-Marcionite in Marcion and the Dating of the Synoptic Gospels , 2014, so perhaps Papias was facilitating 'the competition' - . [Papias] reports that the Twelve had 'to make up for the traitor Judas', a story known from Acts which indirectly excludes Paul from being an...