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by John2
Sat Aug 01, 2020 6:10 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.
Replies: 18
Views: 1785

Re: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.

I think some of Jesus' sayings in the synoptics and more so in other gospels were probably made up by each respective gospel writer. Are you suggesting that all ancient gospel writers had access to non-Christian "words of the Lord" (whether oral or written) and ascribed them to Jesus? All? No, of c...
by John2
Sat Aug 01, 2020 5:02 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.
Replies: 18
Views: 1785

Re: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.

I think you are once again focusing more on the specific example than on the general idea. Let me take a slightly different tack. Are there sayings in the gospels — any of the (ancient) gospels — which you suspect Jesus did not utter? Think of as many as you can. What do you think the true sources ...
by John2
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:28 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.
Replies: 18
Views: 1785

Re: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.

How would the readers of 2 Clement be able to distinguish if they did not know in advance what the source of each quotation was? I think you may be missing the point of the exercise here. I think Clement's readers likely knew the OT (or at least had access to people who knew the OT) and at least on...
by John2
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:53 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.
Replies: 18
Views: 1785

Re: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.

And my counter to this is that you have accounted for only two of the three main possibilities: OT Lord God and NT Lord Jesus. Possibility three is a prophet speaking in the name of either of them, introducing the saying with "the Lord says," or some such. What happens then? I guess I see the third...
by John2
Fri Jul 31, 2020 5:59 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.
Replies: 18
Views: 1785

Re: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.

There are three quotations here. Two of them are introduced by "the Lord says," and the third plays off of the second one with "and again," thus implying "the Lord says." Without knowing in advance the source for each quotation, would you be able to determine which one came from an ancient Jewish p...
by John2
Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:02 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.
Replies: 18
Views: 1785

Re: The epistle of James and the sayings of the Lord.

Ben wrote: I have been working on another pet theory of mine (part of what led to the OP in the first place) which suggests that the original "words of the Lord" had nothing originally to do with Jesus. They were prophecies uttered by prophets who believed, as per Numbers 11.26-30 and Joel 2.28-32 (...
by John2
Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:17 pm
Forum: Jewish Texts and History
Topic: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?
Replies: 21
Views: 2328

Re: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?

I look at it this way. If Ps. 110 is about justifying the idea of Simon (or whoever) being a priest and a king, even if he was a descendant of David and Aaron, referring to David wouldn't work because he was king and not a priest, and referring to Aaron wouldn't work because he was a priest and not ...
by John2
Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:25 pm
Forum: Jewish Texts and History
Topic: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?
Replies: 21
Views: 2328

Re: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?

I am trying to pierce through the lingo (especially "cool") you are using to get at your overall argument or meaning. It sounds like what you may be saying is this: just like the author of Hebrews took Jesus, already (allegedly) a descendant of Judah, and painted him as a priest by making him out t...
by John2
Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:03 pm
Forum: Jewish Texts and History
Topic: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?
Replies: 21
Views: 2328

Re: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?

Alright, but what it says was enough to give someone (whether the psalm's original author or a redactor) the idea that it pertained to David (in addition to Meclhizedek), at least. I would not object to the themes of kingship and Zion prompting an editor to attribute the psalm to David. But, just f...
by John2
Wed Jul 29, 2020 5:39 pm
Forum: Jewish Texts and History
Topic: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?
Replies: 21
Views: 2328

Re: Was Mattathias of the line of Aaron?

Is it given to David? I am not sure the psalm ascriptions are original. Well, the psalm as we have it now says it is "of David" and that "The Lord will extend your mighty scepter from Zion" and "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet.” which sounds messianic/David-...